Mixed .45 ACP Brass -any problems?

[cdoc42]

A dear friend and member of a local police force gave me, guessing, because I won't count, about 1000 fired .45 ACP cases. I've loaded and fired them without any problems, other than one round out of about 200 seized up in the action and as I extracted it, the bullet pulled out of the case and stayed in the gun. No problem knocking it out with a cleaning rod, and I think it may have seated long.

I just shoot for fun, quick drawing at bowling pins and cardboard targets with balloons representing head and chest shots, and 85% of my shots go where they should at 5 and 10 yards, with 15 yards being less accurate.

But I started to wonder if there was more to inaccuracy than just me. Could there be a difference in the brass?

I have 12 brands that I identified so far; I have not yet gone through the whole 1000 cases. Most common are RP, Federal, Winchester, Speer, PMC and Starline. Less common are Aquila, CBC, Hornady, CCI, PPU and RWS.

I guess I'll end up answering own question because I just loaded 3 of each of the common brands; the cases measured 0.888 to .092 inches after resizing, but individual groups of the same case are closer to each other than the spread. I'm using 4.0 gr of Clays with a Ranier 230gr RN bullets and Remington 2-1/2 large pistol primers. Charges were weighed to 4.0 gr exactly and all the bullets seated to a measured OAL of 1.260." I'll shoot them off a rest at 10 yards to see how they do.

But, in the meantime, I would appreciate any feedback from those who have already gone through this process or have some knowledge that would be of benefit.

 

[reddog81]

The only problem I have run into is that some is small pistol primer while most is large pistol primer. I haven't noticed much of a difference when shooting mixed brass, but I haven't paid much attention to it either.

 

[cdoc42]

Yes, reddog, I know what you mean. I happened to find 2 such cases in a batch I was cleaning today - but only because I was checking the names on the cases. Other wise I would have found them when the primer failed to seat.

 

[BigJimP]

Mixing headstamps on handgun cases is no big deal....and will not affect accuracy or consistency in my 40 yrs of reloading..

I do it all the time and i reload and shoot about 25,000 rds of handgun reloads a year....mostly 9mm ...but also .40S&W, .45acp, .380, .38 spl, .357 mag and .44 mag.

I do sort and inspect cases, after cleaning spent brass....and cull out all AMERC, S&B....and in .45acp any NT cases that will typically have small primers...or any with marks or dents that might be an issue, nicks on bases, etc...

 

[Metal god]

If you don't mind inconsistent crimp , bullet hold and bullet set back with some firearms You should be GTG . If you load with a progressive press you'll never know that the case wall thickness varies quite a bit and if you set the die up to give a light crimp on a Winchester case lets say . You will have no crimp on a PPU or Aguila case do to there case walls being much thinner then Win , Fed etc . Now that's with 45acp and 9mm type cartridges that use very little crimp . I'm sure 38, 357 , 44mag etc that take a much heavier crimp the case wall thickness may not effect those cartridges as much .

When I first started reloading years ago I only loaded bottle neck rifle cartridges and was told to always separate your brass by head stamp . I also only loaded on a single stage press where you can feel everything at each stage because you only do one thing at a time .

When I started loading hand gun cartridges 45acp and 9mm I was told as many do that mixing head stamps will not effect "accuracy" . The fact nobody I know can shoot sub moa off hand with a hand gun means I can't argue with that logic . I how ever do have issue with anyone saying mixed brass in hand gun cartridges does not effect your cartridges from round to round , It does period . It's do you care that matters ?

I bought a new Springfield 1911 that I was getting bullet set back on when chambering whenever I used agilua or PPU brass in a mixed brass lot . If memory serves it was .004 every time I chambered the same round . The thing is I did not get that set back when chambering those same rounds in my XD 45 . So is .004 set back a big deal ? Not really and I'd bet it happens more then people realize . The thing is I loaded match rifle loads for years so I have all the gizmo's to measure that kind of thing and do so regardless of the cartridge or firearm used . Most I'm betting don't measure and or test for those things with there hand gun reloads so they claim you're GTG because they haven't blown them selves up yet .

You very well may be GTG . All's I'm saying is there is a deference when loading mixed brass of any cartridge . It really comes down to how much you care . The fact I started out loading my first handgun cartridges on a single stage press meant I could actually feel the difference in how the thinner walled cases sized and excepted a crimp . You can not feel those differences on a progressive do to all the different stages being done all at once . Feeling those differences and being of the mind set from loading match rifle for so long that consistency is the key . That really messed with my head for a little while . Feeling/knowing I was producing inconsistent ammo that would get bullet set back in one of my guns bothered me for awhile . To the point that when I use mixed head stamped brass I now have them separated into thin walled and thick walled lots and still only use the thin walled cases for crap loads with out premium bullets .

YMMV , Metal

 

[Nathan]

In my experience, mixed brass is ok, but you need a way to sort out the Amerc and the small primer stuff.

You can get the crimp right because sized 45 brass is more consistent than you might think and taper crimp is flexible this way. Taper crimp is not holding the round. It is straightening the case enough to chamber. The bullet is held by the fl sizing process. So, if long ones are slightly over-crimp and short slightly under, it works out. You need to confirm your shortest sized cases drop in and out of the barrel/case gage as loaded rounds.

Accuracy is a balance. Better accuracy would come from sorting, but is the shooter/pistol system good enough to know?

 

[noylj]

I haven't found that matching head stamps helped real accuracy in ANY gun I have.
My most accurate gun has been a Ruger .30-06 and it does 0.75-1.25 MOA with matching head stamps and it does 0.75-1.25 MOA with mixed head stamps.
With that, you are now talking about a 4-12 MOA gun, on a good day, and wanting to know if taking the time to segregate head stamps will help.
Well, let's see:
I tried, over several shooting sessions, to shoot matching head stamps and mixed head stamps. I loaded a batch of bullets and then sorted them into lots of five with matching head stamps and the rest in bags of five of the MIXED head stamps (and they were very much mixed). The rest got randomly thrown into 5-round bags. At the range, I would randomly take a bag, shoot it, bring it back, and label with as mixed or with the matching head stamp name. The following represents the results. The blanks in the "matching" column are because out of any number of rounds loaded and then sorted, there were fewer sets of five matching head stamps than mixed. So, for the first load, I could only make one 5-round set of matching head stamps, and the rest were randomized into bags of 5 rounds. (I have attached a screen shot of the Excel page as that may be easier to read).

.45 Auto:
Loads made at same time and then sorted by head stamp
Groups at 25 yards
matching mixed
1.94 1.29
— 1.69
— 2.81
2.97 2.09
— 2.44
1.38 1.81
2.25 2.41
2.00 1.59
2.22 2.88
2.72 2.00
3.91 2.22
1.44 1.88
3.38 2.50
1.38 1.75
2.44 2.69
3.13 2.13
3.38 2.31
— 2.44
— 3.13
1.50 2.31
2.44 2.44
2.81 2.44
1.88 1.75
2.56 1.97
2.69 2.13
2.31 1.16
— 2.06
— 2.19
— 2.75
1.75 1.59
2.25 1.69
1.94 2.19
2.78 4.81
1.84 1.38
— 1.66
3.88 2.03
3.44 2.69
3.50 2.69
2.56 3.22
2.00 1.38
2.56 1.69
2.75 1.56
1.50 1.44
3.00 1.53
— 1.35
— 1.40
— 1.60
— 1.65
— 1.70
2.44 2.50
2.38 1.22
2.47 2.06
2.75 2.13
3.31 2.63
2.19 2.03
2.25 2.88

2.48 2.11 Avg
0.66 0.63 S.D.
Student t-test:
0.002711 accept null hypothesis

So, there is NO statistical difference but the AVG and STD DEV was still slightly smaller for the mixed set (and I fired every group without really knowing if it was mixed or matched).
However, like so many things, if sorting makes you feel better, go for it.

 

[Bayou]

I shoot almost exclusively all range pick-ups, and have been doing so for quite some time. I have no issues with mixed headstamps whatsoever. I use a single stage press and hand primer so even small pistol primer cases is no big deal - they just get primed separately.

In addition to sizing the cases, I do run each of them through a bulge busting push-through die in order to uniform the bases and the rims. Being all range pick-ups, case history is unknown. Uniforming the cases with the push-through die assures quality control. I'm fully aware that many handloaders feel this is unnecessary, but for me, it works and works well.

Finally, after the bullets are inserted (1.23" COL) and crimped (0.468"), each completed round gets inserted in and out of a Dillon case gauge to assure proper chambering.

Using these techniques, the ammunition functions very well in the 1911. For me, at least....

Bayou

 

[hdwhit]

cdoc42 wrote:
...the cases measured 0.888 to .092 inches after resizing...

Can I assume you mean they measured 0.888 to 0.920 after resizing?

But I started to wonder if there was more to inaccuracy than just me. Could there be a difference in the brass?

Well, I sort of control for that variable. After processing, I segregate brass by headstamp, so I will end up with batches of brass with the same headstamp loaded exactly alike. And from that I have found that at the distances I shoot informally (5 to 10 yards) there is no appreciable difference between a batch of cartridges loaded in WIN versus WCC versus Federal versus Starline or anyone else's brass.

I do find a slight difference in point of aim versus point of impact when I load small primer brass the same as large primer brass, but that is the only difference I have been able to consistently ascribe to the brass.

 

[g.willikers]

Having used free pickup and other used brass always, the only accuracy problem was when I caused it,
The obvious answer to your question is, drum roll please:
Yes, like all of us, it's you, not the brass.
Sorry, with accuracy fall off from 5, 10 and 15 yards, there's no blaming it on the ammo or the gun, except in very very rare situations.
Nice try, though.

 

[T. O'Heir]

Inconsistent crimp, bullet hold and bullet set back aren't caused by the brandof case.
Some Winchester, Federal and CCI ammo is loaded with small pistol primers. It's Winchester's fault. They started it with their 'NT' brand. Other than that using multiple brands is nothing to worry about.
"...measured 0.888 to 0.920 after resizing..." If you really want to you can trim 'em to the same length. Trim-to for .45 is .893". SAAMI Max case length is .898" -.010. So even the .888" cases are ok though.
You might want to separate 'em by length only. Set your calipres at .893" and use it as a case length gauge. Quickest way of checking 'em.
"...bullet pulled out of the case and..." Length was too long.

 

[Hanshi]

I use mixed .45acp brass from any number of sources, including many picked up at the range. They are all LP primers and I have had no problem whatsoever.

 

[Jim Watson]

Mixed brass is fine for my IDPA and USPSA shooting. I would want the same lot number for 50 yard NRA slowfire.

The one that pulled the bullet may have been an old thin Remington or maybe a cheesy A-MERC. You do have to sort out the small primer and junk.

 

[Hammerhead]

At 15 yards off hand you're not going to see any accuracy differences in brass brands.

 

[243winxb]

If you don't mind inconsistent crimp , bullet hold and bullet set back with some firearms You should be GTG .

How true.

But for accuracy at 10yds, can't hurt a thing, till a bullet sets back, increases pressure and the case head ruptures.

 

[cdoc42]

Thanks to everyone for comments; it greatly relieves me that I don't have to sort through 1000 cases to separate them.
Good pickup, hdwhit, on my misplaced decimal point or the zero. Yes, measurement was after resizing and the second one should have been 0.920, not 0.092;
I have a question for T. O'Heir. My references show the max length for .45 ACP is as you stated, .898" but the trim to length is .888 which follows the usual pattern of trimming any case back by 0.01" - why would the .45 ACP differ?

 

[243winxb]

Your .920" sized brass is not normal. To long. Measure again to double check.

45 acp brass gets shorter with a few firings. Normal.

I have never heard of anyone trimming 45acp brass.

Bullseye pistol shooter like longer brass for 50 yards. It produces best accuracy, when all of the same lot/brand.

At 10 yards, this all doesnt make a difference, unless brass is to long to chamber correctly.

 

[zeke]

Personally would at least separate the rem brass. Especially if loading jacketed bullets. It is thinner,usually shorter and less ductile than other makes. I use it for lead loads, after using a Lee undersize die on it.

As far as accuracy goes at 10 yards, you likely may not notice a difference with lighter target loads.

If you or pistol is capable of 4 inch groups at distance, than the addition of another factor causing an increase to a five inch group is still an increase. It just a matter of wether the increase is acceptable.

 

[mikld]

I've read a few articles on mixed brass vs. sorted brass and each one concludes there is basically no difference in accuracy and/or functioning (a couple used "super guns" and ransom rests). I inspect and sometime sort my 45 ACP brass (jes 'cause I wanna sort), mainly to look out for small primed cases and junk cases (Amerc and Berdan primed)...

 

[lee n. field]

But I started to wonder if there was more to inaccuracy than just me. Could there be a difference in the brass?

I have 12 brands that I identified so far; I have not yet gone through the whole 1000 cases. Most common are RP, Federal, Winchester, Speer, PMC and Starline. Less common are Aquila, CBC, Hornady, CCI, PPU and RWS.

probably not. .45 is pretty easy to load and pretty forgiving.

Mind your seating depth, and your crimp. Watch out for and discard aluminum or steel cases, and berdan primed cases. Segregate small primer cases from large primer cases. And don't even bother to measure case length.