Mitchell's Mausers 1944 CE K98

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scott8085

Inactive
Hello, I recently came across a 1944 German K98 Mauser at a local gun shop. It has "CE" markings (JP Sauer & Sohn) and all numbers matching SN 4459d. It's a MM import and has a collectors grade certificate. I've attached a couple picks you can see part of the very clean (unfinished) stock and receiver markings. Obviously, this is a surplus weapon that never saw a day of fighting but I like the historic quality being from that region and time.

On the MM website they are sold out of the K98's and I called to ask them for any additional information but apparently they know very little beyond the model, SN, and grade. The guy I spoke with started going on about how it's a great find and that they have been out of K98's for the last 2 years and doubt they'll find more. (I detect a breeze coming from the rear but I don't know)

The shop is asking $699. The MM rep sounded like I just hit the jackpot but I would appreciate an unbiased opinion. The history is great but not if I'm getting taken. I put it on layaway just in case. Thanks for the feedback!
 

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The MM rep sounded like I just hit the jackpot but I would appreciate an unbiased opinion.
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That's not surprising. Mitchell's Mauser basically imported some K98s, cleaned them up really nice and did some stock/finish touch ups, and then sold the guns for significantly more than what other importers would sell them for. I mean like 30-50% more in many cases. Don't get me wrong, I understand they can charge a premium for hand sorting, having to sell off rifles that are too far gone, and touching up blemishes on what's left... but I don't know about a 50% premium.

At any rate, a MM with a certificate honestly isn't worth much more on resale than any other numbers matching K98 in good condition. But in the end, I don't think that's a horrible price for a numbers matching K98. Especially if it doesn't have any capture markings (captures are valuable too, but a numbers matching German gun with no other roll marks is probably the one to have).
 
Just took a second glance at the picture, are you sure that stock is original? If it's not I wouldn't pay $700.00 for it personally. I would still be interested if I could get it in the $500-$550 range.
 
"All Matching" and "Mitchell" are mutually exclusive.

Mitchell K98s are refurbished Russian Capture rifles. Russian Capture rifles never have matching parts, because the Soviets didn't care about that when they reworked them.

Now I am not going to say that Mitchell re-stamped all the parts, I was not there, but somehow the serial numbers on all the parts match the receiver (unlike every other RC K98k), and the font on the stamps do not match the fonts on known original matching rifles. Also, the stocks have been heavily sanded, yet somehow the stamps in the wood are intact.

On edit: More info here: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?265453-Mitchell-s-Mausers
 
The stock is marked with matching SN as the rest of the gun so I have to believe it's original. I found an interview with a MM rep who stated, "All major parts on the rifle have original matching serial numbers: the receiver, the bolt, the stock, and the floor plate. Every rifle has its cleaning rod in place, as well as its front sight hood. All parts are original manufacture (no aftermarket parts). In addition, every rifle comes with its own serially numbered Certificate of Authenticity." (http://www.ohiovalleyoutdoors.com/p...ew-with-Management-at-Mitchell-s-Mausers.html)
 
The stock is marked with matching SN as the rest of the gun so I have to believe it's original.
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Let me guess, on the left side of the butt? like this? The Russians put that there. Germans did put serial numbers on the stock, but on the inside, you can't see them unless you remove the stock (example).

Yes, it has all original K98 parts, just not original to that rifle. It has been heavily refurbished, in ways original rifles were not, like the shiny bolt and really blonde stock.

Does it have a funny looking Asterisk looking thing on the receiver? A lot of Russian Capture rifles had a "X" stamp, actually crossed rifles, which was a Soviet property stamp. Mitchell put another line through it to make it look like something different.

Do yourself a favor, go sign up on www.k98kforum.com, then view this thread and see what a real original matching CE 1944 looks like: http://www.k98kforum.com/showthread.php?3309-CE-44-2189-quot-o-quot
 
Gotta be honest.

I would not put much stock in anything MM says in the way of how much
that gun is worth.
You're right there, that is a foul wind!

You mention that the gun is matching, but your pic shows a polished bolt.
That would be a real problem for me when looking at a straight 98k.

Opinion? I own quite a few original matching 98s from 1936 -1945.
The photo you show is not an original matching rifle, pending photos of additional serial no.s to look at the fonts.

You should not pay over what an RC goes for, and then only if you like the 'clean' look of the Mitchell's.
I would personally look at an RC over that one. More history with honest re-numbering.
It WAS a battlefield capture, just not by the U.S.
One last to keep in mind that a high percentage of the so called 'original bringbacks' (matching or not)
that were in the U.S. prior to the RC invasion are, in fact, pre-68 imports.

JT
 
Mitchell's Mausers are usually cobbled together from parts, made pretty and an excessive price tag hung of 'em. Their site is showing all German K98's as 'sold out with no more coming' too.
"...MM rep sounded like..." He would. He's a salesman.
 
@emcon5, Thank you very much. This is exactly what I'm trying to find out. I expected the stock to be questionable; yes, SN left side of stock. Disappointed the other parts are probably stamped after the fact, however the font looks the same/similar. No crossed rifles with hatch marks or anything. Stamped eagles, the CE, year, and SN. MM electro-pen on the barrel which is aweful. (Yes, shiny, no bluing on the bolt)

What would you say is a fair price then? I'm still interested in the rifle but if the price isn't right, easier to walk away.
 
The Germans did not leave the stocks unfinished. They used a very even blueing, not that thick black coat of the Soviet rework. They were blued whole, so you wouldn't have a mismatch of heavy blued receiver and weak blue on the barrel. They never used electropencils to mark serial numbers.
Your find has all the hallmarks of a Mitchell Mauser even without the certificate, and it is priced as such based on Mitchell's idea of price. But don't expect any gun enthusiast to pay more than half that for it.
 
@T. O'Heir yes, salesman is a salesman but I see no reason why he would get riled up for a gun sale that doesn't benefit him/the company. This rifle was on a used rack at my local shop, taken on trade. I'm surprised they responded at all since it's at least twice removed from them.

This is also why I'm asking you fine people for help. No dog in the fight, I can trust you more!
 
@JT-AR-MG42, Good points. I'm learning a lot here! I've got a small collection of modern arms and looking into more historic pieces so didn't think to snap more pics (rookie move)
I'll take some satisfaction that I questioned the stock, bolt, and markings. I'll see what the shop is willing to do but it sounds like it's not worth it.
 
I would place the value on a MM as being the same as on a regular RC. If it has a good bore and the stock isn't cracked, I would be a buyer at $450 for a shooter. Considering that a real matching number K98k will fetch at least twice that with relatively poor finish and nice ones go for a lot more, I think that would be a fair price.
 
A little background for folks who are learning.

When the rifles were made by the German factories, most parts had the serial number stamped. The barrel bands, floor plate, stock & handguard, bolt (and its parts) and barrel all had the serial number of the receiver. When the Soviets refurbished them they didn't bother keeping the parts of one rifle together. They threw all the parts in piles, hot blued them, and then slapped them back together with whatever parts were on the top of each pile. They electro-penciled the serial number on the bolt, slapped it in a stock (which was slathered in the same nasty shellac they used on Mosin Nagants), stamped the number on the left side of the butt, and didn't care about the rest.

The only serial numbers that will match on a Soviet Capture rifle are the barrel and the action, because they didn't remove the barrels during rework. They also usually (but not always) stamped a property mark, of crossed rifles on the receiver ring, that looks like a "X"

They may or may not have the Nazi markings removed, with differing degrees of enthusiasm. I've see a couple that looked like someone took an angle grinder to them, and others where the swastika was neatly peened, but all other markings were intact.

Again, I was not there, it may be that when the Soviets refurbished them, they set some aside with all matching parts, that for some mysterious reason the fonts of the numbers do not match those of other rifles from the same factory and year.

Maybe they searched all the captured rifles for the ones with the stock stampings are super deep, so that they would still show up after the stocks were heavily sanded.

Maybe they knew that 20 or 30 years in the future their country would collapse and set them aside special so they could sell them to an importer in California. ;)

Like Highpower said, I personally would value it about he same as a Soviet Capture. The problem is the "Matching" numbers, because the dealer might think he has something valuable, and paid too much for it.

If you want a Mitchell, and understand what you are getting, knock yourself out.

For me though, I am don't see any value in "re-made", especially when the re-made item is different from the originals, and is covered in stamps that are at best questionable. If you want a shooter K98k, then a Russian Capture is a good way to go, many are still available with all the German markings.

If you want it to be prettier, refinishing the stock to put it back to more or less what it originally looked like is not difficult. Remove the shellac with denatured alcohol & steel wool, scrub the dirt off it and give it a new finish with Linseed or Tung oil. None of the chemicals involved are particularly toxic, all are inexpensive and can be found at your local hardware store, and it only takes a few hours, spread over a few days. I would avoid modern poly finishes, they look as wrong as a shiny bolt on a K98.

If you want it even prettier, and more or less original, sell the RC stock and buy a Norwegian one, they usually come with matching numbers on the stock, handguard and bands.

That is what I did here:



WW2 era German Mausers (for that matter any WW2 German anything) are a minefield, and it is really easy for someone new to get burned. I am far from an expert, I know just enough to know that in the world of the German K98k I know very little. :D
 
$500 would be a fair price. I know MM is hated by purists, but there really are no more Mausers out there. If you want a nice-looking shooter, MM will do until you stumble into an estate bringback or decide you've got $1200 for a matching K98.

Have it checked by a smith, the shop shouldn't mind.
 
The stock is marked with matching SN as the rest of the gun so I have to believe it's original.
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#1) you don't HAVE to, and
#2) you probably shouldn't.

I've never personally dealt with Michtell's Mausers, all I can say with certainty is that they were extraordinarily proud of them, and priced them well above general market values.

I do not know if it is deserved or not, but Mitchell's has a "backchannel" reputation for producing "matching" number guns by force matches.

The standard German practice of numbering smaller parts to match the receiver is to use the LAST TWO digits of the serial number on the smaller parts. ONLY the last two digits.

SO, as long as the last two digits match the action serial number they can call it "matching". A stock, triggerguard, or any other numbered part from rifle #11199 could be put on action #99999 and to look at it, it would be "matching". Many people believe this is how Mitchell created their supply of "all matching" rifles, and then charged collector prices for an original all matching rifle. This practice is called "force matching. It's unethical, might be illegal (fraud??) but its almost impossible to prove in a court.

Again, I don't KNOW if Mitchell did this, but it is a persistent rumor.

Any all matching gun that has been refinished, in whole, or part should be considered suspect. Especially Lugers and Mausers where matching numbers ADDS to the market value of the gun.

I would also add that good Mausers are not "all gone" and "never to be seen again". That is simply not true. What is true is that the supply of them to retail dealers in large lots is over. They have been sold.

You can still find them, but you won't find them advertised by wholesalers or dealers, you will find them in the used racks in small shops, and at gunshows, being sold by their owners, or more often these days, the children or grandchildren of the owners who have inherited them and are selling them off.
 
Classmate bought a Mitchell. Well, she found a scratch that had been "fixed" with a permanent marker pen. So much for their quality.

She took it apart, stripped the finish, rebarreled it, sporterized the action (bent the bolt handle, installed a chapman swing type safety, plugged the extra screw holes, made a longer magazine release, milled down the guard and removed all the scratches. Then she restocked and reblued it.
 
Classmate bought a Mitchell. Well, she found a scratch that had been "fixed" with a permanent marker pen. So much for their quality.
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Their gun savvy isn't too sharp either.
I watched one of their reps pass on a Luger, saying 'the WWI pistols just don't sell.'
I followed the seller and bought a nice all matching late 1937 at a price anyone would have moved on.

She took it apart, stripped the finish, rebarreled it, sporterized the action (bent the bolt handle, installed a chapman swing type safety, plugged the extra screw holes, made a longer magazine release, milled down the guard and removed all the scratches. Then she restocked and reblued it.
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But other than that its a straight Mitchell, right?
Good story.

JT
 
SO, as long as the last two digits match the action serial number they can call it "matching". A stock, triggerguard, or any other numbered part from rifle #11199 could be put on action #99999 and to look at it, it would be "matching". Many people believe this is how Mitchell created their supply of "all matching" rifles, and then charged collector prices for an original all matching rifle. This practice is called "force matching. It's unethical, might be illegal (fraud??) but its almost impossible to prove in a court.
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Yeah, you see threads on collectors forums all the time, "Looking for front band #1234"

I really doubt Mitchell did that, but it is possible. I suspect they just removed the old number and re-stamped them. Heard reports of the fonts on the part serial numbers matching each other, but different from known good examples of the same rifle code.

Seriously, if you have any interest in German Mausers, you should join www.k98kforum.com. Even if you never post, their Picture Reference Index thread is invaluable for knowing what a original example of a given code/year should look like.

But if you are looking for a shooter, and understand what you are getting with a Mitchell, and the price is right, go for it.
 
Lots of good points above. I did some research before I dove into Mausers and avoided MM mostly b/c their price was steep compared to others.
I bought a russian captured rifle with the electro penciled serial and it shot fine, but it wasn't going to win any beauty contests.

Take your time; you will find a solid Mauser at a solid price.
 
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