tahunua001
New member
I thought this might be better than jumping 5 pages in to the other thread.
some people don't understand the current trend when it comes to shooters attempting to justify the use of certain cartridges for certain hunting applications. there are two main ideologies which tend to conflict in this regard: Bring enough gun VS shot placement is king. I have heard both arguments again and again and for the record, I follow the second Ideology, but I would like to explain my interpretation of both and hopefully give an impartial opinion for those who really do want to understand why the other side thinks the way they do and not just continue to justify their own beliefs without ever changing anyone else's mind.
first for bring enough gun. this is the opinion that you need to have a large enough cartridge to cleanly, and humanely kill what you are hunting. this is the most basic tenant of hunting, don't make the animal suffer. these are the guys who generally hunt with the venerable military surplus cartridges like 30-06, 303 brit, 8mm mauser, etc. all of these are more than enough for deer and many consider them enough for elk, though not all do. these are the people that have been taking deer for decades and rarely experience complications in the process, and therefore, by their personal observations, the cartridge of their choice, must be highly effective for the task at hand. there is nothing wrong with this and there is no reason to change a good setup as long as you are having a good time and putting meat on the table or horns on the wall. these guys also believe that the claims of lost meat due to too much power are myths, however I have been in the interesting position of taking part in two hunts in the same year where two deer were hit in the exact same location at the same angle. the first deer was shot with a 9mm, and you could cut nearly right up to the wound channel, almost zero lost meat. however the second deer was shot at much greater range by a 30-06, 4 inches of meat in all directions was completely bloodshot and useless, which amounted for a great deal of lost meat. these myths are not myths, they are personally observed truths. I've also taken special note of 7mm rem mags, 44 mags, 45/70s, 223, 243s, 30-30s, the faster the bullet is, the more meat you lose, diameter plays a small role.
however there are abuses and zealots in this regard. for those on the outside looking in, for every two guys advocating 30-06 or 270 for deer, there is also another advocating 300 win mag and 338 lapua mag for the same application. these are the guys that take the bring enough gun mentality to the extreme, and I remember growing up with my 243 win and being ridiculed by the next door neighbors kid because I wasn't using a 300 win mag which he claimed was the most perfect whitetail caliber ever invented. these are the guys who claim that shot placement is not as important because as long as you hit it in the middle you just have to find the two halves when it's all done. this is highly irresponsible and a dangerous frame of mind to get into, as I will illustrate later in this post.
now for the shot placement is king opinion. these are the guys that want just as little power as possible to do the job effectively. one of the usual side effects of a lighter recoiling cartridge is also having a lighter rifle(although the increasing popularity of the AR15 as a hunting rifle has made this statement a little less true in recent years). they also have a lower report which can be useful for both preserving hearing, and for not drawing a lot of attention to yourself. I personally have chosen what others call "marginal for the task" cartridges because I was looking for challenges. anyone who has taken a hunters safety course should be familiar with the 5 stages of a hunter, where at different points in a hunter's life, they tend to expect different things out of hunting, such as larger trophies, more animals, etc. during the method stage, the equipment choice and method of hunt become more important than the actual game being pursued or the possibility of an unsuccessful hunt. this stage is all about the challenge, and as many of the guys using 300 win mag for blacktails may be aware, there is little challenge in this method of hunting. so, in order to gain a challenge, I chose to use cartridges that would force me to give up long shots in favor of a greater challenge. I chose to use a small arisaka carbine(6.5x50mm) at 100 yards with open sights(my first and only open sighted hunt) for blackbear, a 9mm carbine for white tail(which I used successfully at 50 yards), and an ar15 chambered in 6.5 Grendel for elk(which I used successfully at 20 yards). these were all challenge hunts for me, not because I truly believed that these were the best cartridge for the job. I have plenty of 30-06(which I've loaned to my brother for elk hunts), 300 weatherby mag(which I've successfully used for elk in the past), 303 brits, 7.7 japanese, 7.62x54R, the list of more effective cartridges goes on and on, but they don't offer a challenge for me, which is one reason why they are rarely used anymore.
now because I saw these mentioned as childrens training cartridges in the other thread, I'm about to talk about tahunua001 when he was just a youngun. I started shooting with my dad's 243. I had a horrible flinch. my brother, for all he tried, was a horrible firearms instructor. all I ever remember for instruction was his yelling at me to stop flinching. well I had no idea that I even had a flinch until I joined the navy several years later and benefited from some real firearms training, but in the mean time I was stuck with the poor habits I had. my brother insisted on choosing the ammo I used, 80gr remington corelokts(which i later came to find out was only his choice because it was the cheapest), and I lost wounded animal after animal after animal. finally I chose to change to 100gr federal powershoks and that year I bagged my first deer, of course it was the size of a schnauzer, but I had finally got a deer, the next year I got a very nice buck with the same ammo.
I went a few years without hunting before returning to the sport and was getting skunked hunt after hunt after hunt. I hunted blackbear with the 300 weatherby mag and was never presented with a shot. I hunted turkey and wasn't presented with a shot. my deer season had consisted of two deer which I had hit with the 243, but due to poor bullet selection(I was using very poor quality ammo), and poor shot placement they both got away. so I decided I would go over to the other side of the fence, I brought my 300 weatherby mag out for deer, to compensate for my poor marksmanship skills and bullet selection. I shot myself a deer with it... and due to poor shot placement it too got away... I almost stopped hunting that year because I was so ashamed.
then it occurred to me that I had been trying to compensate for poor marksmanship skills by throwing more and more power at the animals, rather than fixing the problem behind the rifle. I spent a great deal of time practicing my marksman ship skills and decided that rather than desperately trying to fill tags, I was going to have fun hunting, that next year was the year I got my own turkey, blackbear, deer, and elk, all but the elk involved cartridges or methods which were considered marginal by more than a few people.
now I am not advocating the use of 22LR for bear hunting or anything like that, but bullet construction has definitely improved in years of late. the 6.5 grendel is now my deer gun of choice, even though it barely succeeded in taking an elk calf at point blank range, it has been phenomenal as a whitetail rifle, far better than the 243 ever was with conventional bullets, even though it's only 23gr heavier than the 243 and travelling far slower. I understand that there are some situations where you want more power, but the ability to pass up shots that are less than ideal, knowing the abilities of your rifle and your own marksmanship skills are far more important than the diameter of the bullet you're shooting and the speed at which it travels.
some people don't understand the current trend when it comes to shooters attempting to justify the use of certain cartridges for certain hunting applications. there are two main ideologies which tend to conflict in this regard: Bring enough gun VS shot placement is king. I have heard both arguments again and again and for the record, I follow the second Ideology, but I would like to explain my interpretation of both and hopefully give an impartial opinion for those who really do want to understand why the other side thinks the way they do and not just continue to justify their own beliefs without ever changing anyone else's mind.
first for bring enough gun. this is the opinion that you need to have a large enough cartridge to cleanly, and humanely kill what you are hunting. this is the most basic tenant of hunting, don't make the animal suffer. these are the guys who generally hunt with the venerable military surplus cartridges like 30-06, 303 brit, 8mm mauser, etc. all of these are more than enough for deer and many consider them enough for elk, though not all do. these are the people that have been taking deer for decades and rarely experience complications in the process, and therefore, by their personal observations, the cartridge of their choice, must be highly effective for the task at hand. there is nothing wrong with this and there is no reason to change a good setup as long as you are having a good time and putting meat on the table or horns on the wall. these guys also believe that the claims of lost meat due to too much power are myths, however I have been in the interesting position of taking part in two hunts in the same year where two deer were hit in the exact same location at the same angle. the first deer was shot with a 9mm, and you could cut nearly right up to the wound channel, almost zero lost meat. however the second deer was shot at much greater range by a 30-06, 4 inches of meat in all directions was completely bloodshot and useless, which amounted for a great deal of lost meat. these myths are not myths, they are personally observed truths. I've also taken special note of 7mm rem mags, 44 mags, 45/70s, 223, 243s, 30-30s, the faster the bullet is, the more meat you lose, diameter plays a small role.
however there are abuses and zealots in this regard. for those on the outside looking in, for every two guys advocating 30-06 or 270 for deer, there is also another advocating 300 win mag and 338 lapua mag for the same application. these are the guys that take the bring enough gun mentality to the extreme, and I remember growing up with my 243 win and being ridiculed by the next door neighbors kid because I wasn't using a 300 win mag which he claimed was the most perfect whitetail caliber ever invented. these are the guys who claim that shot placement is not as important because as long as you hit it in the middle you just have to find the two halves when it's all done. this is highly irresponsible and a dangerous frame of mind to get into, as I will illustrate later in this post.
now for the shot placement is king opinion. these are the guys that want just as little power as possible to do the job effectively. one of the usual side effects of a lighter recoiling cartridge is also having a lighter rifle(although the increasing popularity of the AR15 as a hunting rifle has made this statement a little less true in recent years). they also have a lower report which can be useful for both preserving hearing, and for not drawing a lot of attention to yourself. I personally have chosen what others call "marginal for the task" cartridges because I was looking for challenges. anyone who has taken a hunters safety course should be familiar with the 5 stages of a hunter, where at different points in a hunter's life, they tend to expect different things out of hunting, such as larger trophies, more animals, etc. during the method stage, the equipment choice and method of hunt become more important than the actual game being pursued or the possibility of an unsuccessful hunt. this stage is all about the challenge, and as many of the guys using 300 win mag for blacktails may be aware, there is little challenge in this method of hunting. so, in order to gain a challenge, I chose to use cartridges that would force me to give up long shots in favor of a greater challenge. I chose to use a small arisaka carbine(6.5x50mm) at 100 yards with open sights(my first and only open sighted hunt) for blackbear, a 9mm carbine for white tail(which I used successfully at 50 yards), and an ar15 chambered in 6.5 Grendel for elk(which I used successfully at 20 yards). these were all challenge hunts for me, not because I truly believed that these were the best cartridge for the job. I have plenty of 30-06(which I've loaned to my brother for elk hunts), 300 weatherby mag(which I've successfully used for elk in the past), 303 brits, 7.7 japanese, 7.62x54R, the list of more effective cartridges goes on and on, but they don't offer a challenge for me, which is one reason why they are rarely used anymore.
now because I saw these mentioned as childrens training cartridges in the other thread, I'm about to talk about tahunua001 when he was just a youngun. I started shooting with my dad's 243. I had a horrible flinch. my brother, for all he tried, was a horrible firearms instructor. all I ever remember for instruction was his yelling at me to stop flinching. well I had no idea that I even had a flinch until I joined the navy several years later and benefited from some real firearms training, but in the mean time I was stuck with the poor habits I had. my brother insisted on choosing the ammo I used, 80gr remington corelokts(which i later came to find out was only his choice because it was the cheapest), and I lost wounded animal after animal after animal. finally I chose to change to 100gr federal powershoks and that year I bagged my first deer, of course it was the size of a schnauzer, but I had finally got a deer, the next year I got a very nice buck with the same ammo.
I went a few years without hunting before returning to the sport and was getting skunked hunt after hunt after hunt. I hunted blackbear with the 300 weatherby mag and was never presented with a shot. I hunted turkey and wasn't presented with a shot. my deer season had consisted of two deer which I had hit with the 243, but due to poor bullet selection(I was using very poor quality ammo), and poor shot placement they both got away. so I decided I would go over to the other side of the fence, I brought my 300 weatherby mag out for deer, to compensate for my poor marksmanship skills and bullet selection. I shot myself a deer with it... and due to poor shot placement it too got away... I almost stopped hunting that year because I was so ashamed.
then it occurred to me that I had been trying to compensate for poor marksmanship skills by throwing more and more power at the animals, rather than fixing the problem behind the rifle. I spent a great deal of time practicing my marksman ship skills and decided that rather than desperately trying to fill tags, I was going to have fun hunting, that next year was the year I got my own turkey, blackbear, deer, and elk, all but the elk involved cartridges or methods which were considered marginal by more than a few people.
now I am not advocating the use of 22LR for bear hunting or anything like that, but bullet construction has definitely improved in years of late. the 6.5 grendel is now my deer gun of choice, even though it barely succeeded in taking an elk calf at point blank range, it has been phenomenal as a whitetail rifle, far better than the 243 ever was with conventional bullets, even though it's only 23gr heavier than the 243 and travelling far slower. I understand that there are some situations where you want more power, but the ability to pass up shots that are less than ideal, knowing the abilities of your rifle and your own marksmanship skills are far more important than the diameter of the bullet you're shooting and the speed at which it travels.
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