Mini Scout.

H

Handy

Moderator
I've always thought the Scout Rifle concept was interesting, the merits of individual features aside. I've been thinking lately that a miniture of the concept in .223 might be fun if you could make it really dainty.

I know that Colonel Jeff is turning over in his Lazy Boy, but people always talk about the handyness of Mini-14's. What if you had a similar weapon, but even lighter and accurate, do to the bolt feed. Unfortunately, I can't think of any weapons that apply. The closest is the CZ rifle with the removable mag, but it's not really light and the mag is five rounds. Something the size of a Mini-14 with it's mag well or an AR mag well would be best.

Can anyone think of any rifle action that would apply itself to the little .223 concept? Would anyone appreciate such a rifle if it existed? Maybe Marlin would make one.
 
Does it have to be semi auto? There are a bunch of cool bolt action .223's that would fit the bill. Model 7 comes to mind.
 
I have a full custom scout based on a Mauser action in .308. Let me tell you that it is a super handy rifle to have around. The previously mentioned Model 7 would work, Steyr made the Scout in .223 also. But I have a question: What does one do with a .223 scout? I'm just curious as to why .223 will fit the bill for a general purpose rifle for you. For my general purposes the .223 is inadequate

Dan
 
It is supposed to be a bolt action.

It is not supposed to be a General Purpose, as much as a survival or "kit" rifle. I'm not offering an alternative to the .308 Scout, rather than a derivative.

With .223 you could make a very small and light gun. Many semiauto .223s are lighter than light bolt .308's. So a light and small .223 bolt could be really tiny, yet very accurate. The ammo is also light, but is true rifle ammo with range and some killing power. Is a 3 pound rifle out of the question? Something lighter and simpler than a M1 Carbine or Mini-14, but very accurate and about that size. A step up from a small .22 magnum that shoots cheap military surplus.
 
I looked at the Model 7. Being designed for .308, it's not light (6 pounds). With .223, you should be able to use a much lighter action.
 
6 lbs isn't light enough? :eek: I'm still not sure what the rifle is for. A survival and kit rifle... Which means hunting small or large game and occasional defense to me. The mini 14 feels completely flyweight to me. The Professional Ordinance Carbon fiber AR feels ridiculously lightweight at 3.9 lbs. A bolt action could probably be modified to weigh that much but the barrel would be so thin that you couldn't even mount a forward mounted scope. This could be the major Achilles heel of trying to design a flyweight bolt action scout. Another thing is the Leupold IER scope weighs 7.5oz and the mounts probably weight (A VERY rough guess) 8oz. So that means you'd have to have a 2 pound rifle to keep the total weight under 3 lbs....

Dan
 
If you went with one of those carbon fiber barrels, skeletonized some pieces parts & maybe chopped some on the stock, you could probably shed better'n a pound I'd think.

I disremember who (coupla different companies) it is that does the really lightweights, but IIRC 5-1/4 pounds for full-sized cartridges. Seems a .223 could be a tad lighter.
 
The Mini is fine, but I would use the Mini-30 for a basis. As I have posted many times, fix the GAS BLOCK and the Minis will shoot fine as for accuracy.

Now, add some form of stripper clip feed, and I noticed Hanson makes a real good looking 10 shot magazine for the Mini-30, clip the barrel down to 16 inches for handieness, and lighten the wood stock by drilling holes in the stock underneath the plastic buttstock plate. Then, using acra-glass, bed the stock to make the forend wood stronger and not warp in wet weather.

Add a Ashly Ghost ring sight, plus a 2 to 3 x scope, and that would make a fine Mini-Scout.

Almost all the work above can be done by oneself. Only the barrel recrowning and fashioning a stripper guide would take some metal work.

Deaf
 
I think mentioning 3 pounds confused things, let me start over.

6.5 pounds is heavy for a bolt action rifle chambered only in .223. The following all weigh that or less:

Colt 16" Lightweight
Mini-14
Marlin 1894 Lever
Carbon 15

If those complex rifles can offer reasonably heavy barrels and accuracy at 6.5 lbs. or less (5 pounds for the Carbon), why can't a very basic bolt gun do the same for less than 5 pounds? .223 or 7.62X39 do not require an action nearly as strong as a .308, so why use a .308 action? With a lighter action, a short barrel of standard profile and a polymer stock the weight should be closer to 4 pounds, maybe less. Then add scope and bipod.

Is that so much to ask?
 
I don't think anyone makes a bolt action smaller than the typical "short" action for the 308 based cartridges; at least not until you get to the rimfire bolt actions. You're right, a 223 sized action could be a little narrower, a little shorter and thus lighter than the 308 sized "short" bolt action.
The problem is most 223 caliber rifles are intended to be "varmint" rifles, where accuracy is the major consideration, not weight. So the factories go ahead and use the standard 308 "short" action for their "varmint" rifles as there isn't a reason not to; and a new smaller action would mean more expense for both the "varmint" models and the "compact" models using the 308 based cartridges due to loss of economies of scale.
 
So how about using an AR barrel with extension and adapted bolt. You could make the rest of the receiver out of aluminum or plastic.
 
I was just thinking that according to Ronin, the M4 service rifle, most lever actions and all standard .22 rifles are probably "too light".

This is pretty funny considering that a Scout dressed out with all accessories is supposed to be 6.6 lbs. or less. I can't imagine a 6.5 lbs. Model 7 making the cut. It sounds like calling for a sub 5 lbs. basic rifle would be necessary to build a regular Scout, let alone the Mini Scout.
 
There have been some good ideas surfacing thus far. As for the carbon barrels, that's a good idea to thicken up the barrel without adding weight, but I don't think that you can drill and tap into a carbon barrel (I could be wrong so please correct me). You might be able to use a Ching Ring bonded to the barrel however. I didn't mean that anything under 6 lbs. is too light, just that it is suitably light and thus good for carrying all day without strain. You are completely correct, a bolt rifle could be made to your specs. But as Chris McDermontt pointed out to us, its probably not going to happen. I guess I just don't see anything wrong with a 6.5 lb scout. I don't really know if the extra 1.5 lbs is worth all the extra effort. But if its something you think should be created, go for it. :) Just don't forget to send me pics of the completed project ;)

Dan
 
Ronin,
Styer did manufacture the scout in .223, however I own a Styer Scout in .308. And while it is a neat concept and it is deadly accurate it has some MAJOR flaws and I wouldn't recomend a Styer Scout to anyone. It's biggest problem is that Jeff and the boys at G.S.I. absouloutly refuse to admitt to any design flaws or weaknesses and therefore are unwilling to correct them. Rather childish I'd say. I'd be glad to share some of my Styer missfortunes but I'm sure they've already been mentioned on this forum.
On a happier note has any one given any thought to Kimber 84M as a scout. It looks to me to posses many of the right characteristics for a really good scout conversion.
 
Sako used to make bolt guns tailored to the cartridges. They made a mini for the 223 size cartridges, which would be ideal for a mini Scout. Agree the 308 length bolts are unwieldy for a 223 size cartridge in a Scout-type application
 
Nothing new under the sun. Chief AJ over in Illinois has been doing this for years. Write White Barn and they'll send you a catlogue.
 
H&H Hunter- I said "...Steyr made the scout in .223 also" in my first post :) About the design flaws, that's why I stayed away from the SS and got a custom scout instead. I agree that GSI and Mr. Cooper are unwilling to tackle the flaws of the SS. It seems like they made it to be the ultimate scout rifle and since they believe it is the pinnacle of the design, they will not admit or handle the flaws. If you "scoutify" your Kimber post pics for us to all see :)

Dan
 
Ronin,
As soon as I get it, it goes to the scout shop. I've had an 84M on order from Kimber for 7 months now and still no rifle.
I completely agree with you on the .223 scout I don't see much use for it. Alot of people do so if a guy wants a .223 in a scout go for it!!
 
H&H Hunter- Kimber scout...that's going to be a beautiful rifle when the smiths are done with it! I can't wait till I can get my hands on a digital camera so I can take some pics of my custom scout... Hopefully this weekend. You're right, the .223 scout isn't for us. But if some people find a niche for it, good on them!

Dan
 
Part of the Scout deal is "light and handy". Seven pounds, fully dressed; overall length of roughly one meter. The only reason for the forward mount scope is for quick target acquisition--well, yeah, generally, I agree--and to be able to reload from a stripper clip--which to me seems a bit less important.

The .308 cartridge is most of the "all around" part of the deal.

I have a Sako Forester in .243 which weighs seven pounds, fully dressed, with a Leupold 2X7 on it. A 19" barrel which is actually rather thick-walled.

Where I'm headed is that it oughta be a lead-pipe cinch to build up a bolt-action .223 with, say, a 20" barrel which would come in at six or so pounds with scope, sling and four or five rounds of ammo on board.

Dunno about a semi-auto...

:), Art
 
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