Mini-14 Scout: Obsolete system?

S

SB

New member
It's amazing sometimes how you think you have something finally ironed out, only find out very you (I) actually know next to the wealth of information that's out there.

The latest example of this is when I looked up a website, and one of them stated that the Mini-14 with Scout mount is an obsolete system. I'm in a computer lab right now, so i don't have the bookmarked address handy, but can anyone explain this obvious novice just why the Mini-14 system is obsolete? The website didn't explain why. Incidentally, if anyone wants that bookmark, let me know, and I'll post it later on.

For further gain more information, I stayed up til 3am last night trying to read Jeff Cooper's commentaries on the scout concept. But there sure is a mountain of material to read. Can someone condense it into plain English so that somebody like me can understand?

Finally, I've seen several websites that shows how to make budget scouts. What are your opinions on those? I mean, my wife gave me that "look" again when I said I wanted a Steyr scout and told her how much it was. Truth is, it's more gun than I am qualified to be using. I mean, at the very least, I would be too afraid to ding it up. So, for urban combat, what is really a good budget scout if you can only choose one?

Should I even bother with scouts? How about just a regular rifle configuration? Some assistance would be greatly appreciated.
 
I really like the scout concept. Before circumstances allowed me to have the real thing, I had a pseudo-scout builton a Rem 700. Please do a search for the details on this gun, as they have been posted repeatedly.

As far as the real budget scouts, on surplus military bolt actions, I have no direct experience. I have never been comfortable with guns that cost less than 100 rounds of good ammo ;).

I have no idea why the Mini-14 would be considered obsolete. You can buy one at Walmart for around $350, and it would probably cost you another $200 to get a Burris MER Scope, a mount for the scope and a decent sling.
remember that the scout concept calls for a Bolt action, not a Semi. I built the Remington mentioned above for around $600.

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-Essayons
 
Are you looking for a rifle to use against humans, animals, or both. If you plan on shooting animals, 308 would be a good choice. If you are only planning on shooting people, a lighter caliber will do. If both, the 7mm-08 might be an interesting choice.

Is the "Scout Rifle" a good concept? Well, people who have them tend to like them very much. Now, this is just one mans opinion, but if I have to face bad guys, I don't want a bolt-action. Picking off the baddies at 600 yds is an interesting concept, I'd rather worry about the ones within 250 yds. I'd also want more then 5 or 10 rounds in the hopper. I think an AR-15 has a lot going for it. Get a good scope for it and practice, practice, practice. If you have to hunt with it, think brain shots. Remember, you won't be sport shooting, you'll be hunting for food. You won't care about getting a 5 pointer or ruining a mount.

Jeff Cooper is a very wise man and I suggest reading as much of his work as you can. I'm also a big fan of his. But he is a product of his time. He has great concepts, but it is worthwhile to see how those concepts can be applied to weapons designed after 1935.
 
About the only gun "concept" I'd call obsolete would be the flintlock. Without some context to provide meaning, I don't see how somebody could call a Mini-14 obsolete.

The Scout rifle concept is specifically for a hunting rifle which is very quick to get on target, and very quick for a second shot if needed. The key is target acquisition. The Steyrs are reported to shoot within one MOA, but that is not an absolute requirement for hunting either deer or people. However, its primary purpose is not for self defense.

Now, one of Cooper's specs was a scoped, loaded and slung total weight of seven pounds. There is certainly nothing obsolete nor outmoded about that.

Omitting Class 3 guns from this discussion: If one's self defense scenario includes dealing with a large, armed group, no bolt-action nor Garand style semi-auto would be as effective as a magazine fed semi-auto with large-capacity mags.

If one's billfold precludes an assortment of guns for different purposes, one could rely on several quick shots from a bolt-action hunting rifle into a mob, hoping for the psychology of "Shoot the leaders, and turn the herd". Note that this has indeed stopped more than one riot...

I note that the 10-ga. Coach Gun (referred to in the White Elephant thread) has many redeeming social qualities if facing a mob.

FWIW, Art
 
Thanks Art for calling my beloved flintlocks obsolete. They're not obsolete, they're outmoded, or dated, or well seasoned, or not the optimal choice for urban combat.

Personally I don't think the Mini14 is obsolete. It's just not the most accurate .223 rifle you can get.

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
You guys will probably hate me for this, but I can't find that link again. Recalling from the top of my head, I have to make a general apology for a slight miscommunication. The site I read didn't say the Mini-14 itself is obsolete. But rather, the Mini-14 action with the scout scope concept is obsolete.

I am specifically interested in urban combat. As in, no, I won't be hunting animals with it. Well, possibly the occasional rabid raccoon. But Art, can you elaborate as to why you don't think the Garand action is poor mob control? Being a battle-tested design, I would think it's the contrary. And yes, class 3's are out of the question for me.

Whatever it is, I would like to stick with mid-powered caliber designs. Either the .223 or the 7.62x39mm. Again, I think that's plenty for my personal needs. I've always like the AK design, but now want something with tighter tolerances so I can reach out and touch someone with precision if I really had to. The stock Mini-14 seemed to fit the bill. It was light, small, versatile, can hold large capacity mags. Based on the Garand design. And best of all, doesn't look too intimidating to the casual observer. But I'll use something else if you folks have a better idea, though I am limited to a budget of $500 or less.

As for the scout concept itself, wouldn't the faster acquisition trading off for more distance accuracy be considered a good idea in urban combat? That's what I thought originally, but now I'm seeing information that may be contradictory. In fact, when it's all weighed in, simple iron sights are plenty, which I agree with, but I wouldn't mind having the capability to pluck a sniper 200+ yards with a single shot, hence the idea of having scout scopes in the first place as opposed to just iron sights. Is my logic flawed here?

[This message has been edited by SB (edited July 28, 1999).]
 
4V50Gary, obsolete ain't the same as broken or "don't work"... :)

SB, my opinion is that weapons-choice is a function of the scenario you envision. Personally, I think a Garand, an AR or Mini, or a seven-ish-round shotgun would work just fine in how I, myownself, think an urban self-defense situation would work, in a time of "great unrest".

I think, but don't know for sure, that if I were relying on a bolt-action rifle, I would tend to be far more cautious. (For discussion, I'm assuming some sort of 5-10 in a group, obviously armed, night time.) Certainly none of the movie-style "Who are you? What are you doing here?" stuff...

It's scenario: Are you alone (meaning no neighbors helping), how many badguys, all that stuff. Is there a difference in your mind as to whether or not martial law is imposed? And tactics: Will you wait until they throw torches, or start through your door or your neighbor's door? Would you do a pre-emptive strike?

Since I certainly wouldn't be concerned in such circumstances about one MOA accuracy, I'd be happy with any of the Mini 14s I've had. I think the odds favor ranges under 100 yards, and quite possibly within 50.

Overall, I think the particular weapon is less important than your pre-planned tactics in any of several scenarios.

FWIW, Art
 
IMHO, I would go with an AR-15 for urban unrest. The AR-15 can hold hi-cap mags, if needed can shot sub moa, and is a proven combat weapon. The .223 is a good round designed more for wounding then for straight out killing power, but if you drop 4 to 5 in a group and the rest hear them screaming in pain and agony they are less likely to continue their attack. Just my $0.02 worth.
 
The biggest problem you might have mounting a scope on a Mini-14 action is the violence of the cyling action. Watch how far brass is thrown from one to see some of what I'm talking about.

The harsh cycling may destroy the zero of a scope.

I first heard of this phenomena on a post on rec.guns many years ago about mounting a scope on an M1A. What caught my attention was Gale McMillan answered the post saying his shop has seen the M1A action is the most destructive to scopes they've ever seen. To withstand the pounding the scope had better be a very well made one. IIRC he said Leupolds hold up for a while and high priced ones like Swarovski seem to hold up pretty well to the pounding.

The biggest thing I got out of that discussion was don't bother mounting a glass scope on an M1A/Mini-14 action.

Maybe the Mini is softer than the M1A action but I don't want to find out the hard way I'm wrong.

Edmund
 
I've had K-4s on two of my Minis. On the first one, the Weaver Ring main-screw vibrated loose. Good ol' LocTite! No further problems.

Never any scope damage from recoil; reasonable coyote and jackrabbit accuracy, and never a problem with hi-cap mags.

For the money, I'd definitely take the Ruger over the AR-15. My scenarios for any self-defense use don't include days in a swamp with multi-mag firefights. If so, I'd go the AR...If I needed target accuracy, I'd go with the AR. Different ballgames, different rules, different equipment.

FWIW, Art
 
I've always looked at a scout rifle as a "niche" kind of gun, not a main defensive firearm. If I have to face a bad situation, I don't see it being a 600 yard encounter, but up close and personal. (At least that's MY situation.) The scout rifle just doesn't measure up to a decent semiauto for me! I love my AR, and I love my mini 14 (both iron sights). Either would do in a 200 yard or less situation...

If you need a long range gun, what's wrong with a stock hunting rifle? A LOT cheaper! The scout concept is lost on me. You could buy a mini 14 and a 308 deer rifle from Wally World for $800 and have the best of both worlds.

[This message has been edited by Gino (edited July 31, 1999).]
 
I own a Savage Scout (10CFM) with a 2 1/2 power intermediate scope and a Harris Bipod. It is in .308. I use to be a "highground" sniper for my police department. We always sent out two people for each highground position. One was the sniper, the other was the "observer." It was the observer's job to be close cover, that is, stop anyone approaching the sniper and also to relay over the radio what the sniper observed. A problem for snipers is that their field of view is very limited when looking through a high powered scope. If someone was to approach from outside that field of view, the sniper could/would be caught of guard. Our observers were equipped with HK93s. When I purchased the scout rifle the idea of it being an observer weapon hit me like a ton of bricks. With the intermediate relief scope, the shooter can see through the scope (at 2 1/2 magnification)BUT with one or both eyes open, he can also see everything around the area, including persons approaching as close as 5 feet away. This allows a person to target something(one) at a distance, and also react and hit someone sneaking up. The low magnification scope does not distort your point of aim much at all (of course, if you shoot something very close, it will shoot low). Unless you try the scout system, you can't trully appreciate how well it works.

As far as using a bolt action instead of a semi-auto...the old saying is, "It's not who shoots first, it's who hits first."

Now to cheat...I have the scout rifle in .308 to handle medium to long distances. Short range, I have a Kel Tec Sub 9 rile in 9mm and numerous handguns. Each one has a role and purpose.

Hope this helps.
 
This thread has been most helpful to me and I thank you all for the assistance thus far.

T&J (can I call you T&J? :)) has articulated one of the primary strengths of the scout concept, one that I was hoping to benefit given the dynamics in an urban firefight, based on the possible worst-case scenario that I am left to survive against multiple aggressors by myself.

I've also wondered about how the gun would affect the zero of a scope. In fact, I've wondered about this for some time with the ranch model, seeing how they are integral scope rings and are right above the open bolt. Anybody got any experience with the ranch and would like to comment?

The more I looked into this, the more I am beginning to think that I should just stick with iron sights. And if I change my mind, well, the rifle will be ready and waiting for me.

But so far, I am still convinced the Mini-14 will be adequate for my needs. I can't knock the AR, but I could almost have two Mini's for the price of one AR. And it's "generic" enough that both parts and accessories are easy to come by in the event of a post-apocalyptic worst-case scenario. Hehe. Yeah, it's going to be my Y2K rifle.

Actually, there's a somewhat personal reason why I am choosing the Mini-14 over just coughing up the money for an AR. I have a friend who uses Mini's where he works and is very familiar with it. He will also be able to do just about any custom work I ask for.

While we're on the subject, I saw another episode on "SWAT" teams last night, either on TLC or the Discovery channel. Can't remember which. But this particular episode featured the Toronto, Canada's version of the SWAT. I think they're called the Emergency Task Force or ETF for short? Anyways, right to the point, their outdoor/overwatch gun is the Mini-14.

Ruger Mini's: Not great, not bad. But good enough for them, and good enough for me.

[This message has been edited by SB (edited August 01, 1999).]
 
Edmund Rowe - welcome back!

The Mini14 does pound the daylights out of a scope and even good scopes like Leupold will fail when mounted on a Mini14.

That's why Ruger reengineered the gun into the Ranch model which features a buffer, modified ejector (to the side and not upwards towards the scope). Too many broken scopes were being sent back to the factory and Bill Ruger ordered the problem fixed. If people were going to scope his rifle, he'd have to build them to be scoped.

Don't scope a Mini. You're asking for trouble (unless you buy one of those lifetime guarenteed scopes which you don't mind dismounting and replacing everytime it breaks). If you have to go glass, go Ranch (problem with the Ranch though is its cheap folding rear sight which breaks).

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
Thanks. Invaluable advice. No scopes for me. Just iron now.

Now I just have to iron out whether to get blued or stainless steel and wood or polymer stock? And what about folding stocks and muzzle brakes? Anyone have any experience with these?

Most realistically, I will stick with the stock Mini. But I figure it doesn't hurt to ask anyways.
 
Greetings~

I have a Ranch Rifle in Stainless and kept it pretty much stock. I did replace the rear sight with a Williams peep, which is a vast improvement over the cheapo folding sight. I also added a flash supressor to this gun.

I also have an older Mini-14, stainless in a Butler Creek folding stock. I prefer the length of the folder over the standard wood stock, plus it makes the gun look better, IMHO. Also I added an AK74 style muzzle brake, which makes it a bit longer at the business end, but does control the minimal amount of flip the .223 offers. The only problem with a muzzle brake/supressor is the difficulty in really knowing the condition of the crown and cleaning becomes a chore, as you cannot clean from the breech.

As for scopes, the folding Mini has an aftermarket scope mount on which a Tasco reddot resides. It works great, and I still have the irons as needed.

I just wish someone made 30mm rings for the Ranch model. Anyone out there know of anyone?

[This message has been edited by spleenandideal (edited August 01, 1999).]
 
Hey SB, if you are going to get a mini, your biggest problem is going to be finding good hicap mags. The Ruger factory hicaps are $80 and up, if you can find them. I recommend getting Precision mags. I (and most of the Mini 14 List) have had very good luck with the Precision hicap mags. I just found some 20 rounders for $22 each at the last gun show. STAY AWAY FROM THE USA MAGS! Pure crap...

I agree with spleenandideal. If you get the Ranch Rifle, (and if you ever think you may scope it you should get the RR) Look into the Williams replacement rear sights.
 
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