Mini-14 or is 30-30 good enough?

B

Bastage

Inactive
This is my first message here so please bear with me. . .

I am in the market for a new rifle. I have been shooting for over 15 years so I am not really new to the game, but it has been mostly handguns and .22 rifles. I am interested in this rifle mainly for home defense, but maybe some plinking from time to time.

Would a lever 30-30 serve my purposes better than the Mini-14, or are all the gun magazines right when they espouse the virtues of the .223 rifle for home defense?

Advantages and disadvantages of both?

bastage
 
Um, I'd say a 30-30 is fine for what it's worth, but when talking about being attacked by people with para-military style weapons, then the 30/30 has two problems.

1)It's not Semi-Auto. You really want to have semi-auto for defense against other semi-autos. High Capacity and quick reloading is probably a real advantage in a fire fight...at least if you consider the history of rifles in warfare it is.

2) 30/30 as a round is even more powerful than the AK round (762x39)...it may be a bit overkill. I mean, I'm all for more power, but I've shot AK and .223 and the less recoil, the easier it is to aim your subsquent shots. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO AIM YOUR SHOTS.

My Suggestion is a .223 or 762x39 Carbine with a muzzle break. Go get one of the last few AK clones availible on the U.S. market now. The Maadi is Ok, or even one of the new restricted capacity Hungarians SA 2000's made by FEG...either that or Get a Bushmaster Shorty with the "AK" muzzle Break, if you can. (Around $750)

If you want a larger caliber, get the VEPR in .308 ! It's built on the Russian RPK reciever...IN RUSSIA ! Also restricted to 10 round capacity, but .308 is really grrrreat.

Anyway...
Good Luck my Freind
 
Having evaluated a 30-30 owned by GF's father, I found it one weak spot: loading gate. Trying to replentish the tube magazine is slow. Telling how many rounds you have left is also a pain. For a hunter, a lever 30-30 would make more sense than a mini14 (as would my bolt .303)...but I suspect that in the heat of combat, last thing you want to do is operate another lever.

From photography, I also found that using lage tele lenses on improvised rest is much easier if you do not have to shift grip to focus the whole mess manually, same with cycling the rifle action. Of course, autofocus/autoloading carry a price difference (2x or more) but reliability seems on par with manual focus/lever rifles.

BTW, one thing that turned me off tube-fed lever action was the amount of trouble involved in clearing jams...if one was induced, which wasn't frequent.
 
For what it's worth, here's my two cents. The 30-30 has less of a political stigma attached to it than a semi-auto, it actually is more powerful than the .223 rifles, and ammo is easily available and will continue to be so. It is not the best choice for home defense, but it absolutely will get the job done.

The .223 rifles are easier to shoot rapidly, the ammo is cheaper than 30-30 ammo, and there are many more acessories available for them. They also will do the job for you. They do have a greater intimidation factor to them than a lever action, this may avoid your having to fire at all.

If you are in a suburban area, you might want to lean towards a .223, if you are in a rural area you might want to consider the 30-30. From the penetration point of view, the 30-30 with most ammo will blow right through most people whereas the .223 with light hollowpoints is less likely to.

From the functional point of view, if you are more likely to face multiple home invaders, you might want the rapid fire capability of the .223, however, the manual of arms for a semi auto is more complicated than that of a lever action. This may be an issue if you plan on having more than one operator for the rifle.

In short, you need to figure out which type of rifle will fit you and your situation more than the caliber, any rifle caliber will do what you are talking about. Hope this helps.

------------------
With my shield or on it...
 
Have you thought about a shotgun instead? Really the shotgun would make a much better home defense weapon for several reasons:
1. Load it with 3/0 buckshot and you have a weapon which delivers multiple 32 caliber balls. 2. The chance of penetrating walls is much less than with any rifle 3. The sound of a pump shotgun is very intimidating.4.If you're a small person or are recoil sensitive, a 410 will fit the bill. 5.Some home defense shotguns are magazined with the first shot 3/0 buck followed by a slug, followed by 3/0 buck, etc. Want to guess what the knockdown power of a shotgun loaded that way is? 6. Since you will not be waterfowl hunting with the gun, you can remove the "plug" and potentially have 7-9rounds "ready to go." So, for a home defense weapon, I would almost always reach for my shotgun -rather than a rifle.
 
Thanks for all of the good advice. I already have a 12 ga. shotgun, but I am more concerned with having some longer range ability. Obviously situations where that is necessary are very rare, but right now, I am not prepared if it were to come up in say, about 4 months or so.

I am leaning more towards the Mini-14, but I can get a used Winchester 30-30 for about $150 from a local retired fella if I want it. A lot less than the Mini-14 is going for around here. Maybe I'll just get both and use the 30-30 for hunting trips :)


What rounds do most folks use in .223?

bastage

[This message has been edited by Bastage (edited August 27, 1999).]
 
Bastage,

I can imagine two different sorts of home defense scenarios:

1) One or more criminals break into your home to commit burglary/rape/mayhem. You need short range firepower for a short period of time.

2) This is much less likely, but... Civil disorder (or possibly just remoteness from "the authorities") results in mobs/bandits attacking your home/neighborhood for the purpose of looting/arson/mayhem. You need longer range firepower for a longer period of time.

For scenario #1, a shotgun might be the best choice, although a handgun or rifle would probably suffice as well if skillfully handled. The weapon needs to be able to be brought into action quickly and operated in close quarters.

For scenario #2, you need some sort of rifle.

Getting back to your question...

A 30-30 lever action rifle is inexpensive, about as "politically correct" as a gun can be, and powerful and accurate enough to use for hunting deer-sized game. Disadvantages: slow to load, slow to unload, hard to shoot prone or left-handed, requires practice to shoot quickly, and low capacity.

A Mini-14 will shoot more rapidly with cheaper ammo and lower recoil. Disadvantages: generally worse accuracy, provokes "assault weapon" hysteria, good hi-cap magazines are scarce/expensive.

You might try buying a cheap (i.e., used) 30-30 first. If you don't like it, you should be able to sell it without losing much money.
 
One thing you always need to look at is the cost and availabilty of ammunition for your potential choice of weapon. Your choice here is simple...223.

Additionally, with the semi-auto Mini-14 in .223, you can get 30 or 40 round mags easily as well as a "tac-trigger" or "hellstorm" trigger system which allows you to shoot the weapon at near "full-auto" cycle. Also available are folding stocks (I like the Butler Creek model) which reduce the overall length of the weapon by about 12"+. This combination of NATO compatible cartridge, high capacity magazines, short and easy to handle stock config, and the ability to shoot semi or "full" auto, makes the Mini-14 the right choice. You can also hunt with it (just use the 5 round mag that comes with it).

BTW, this same config can be obtained with the more pricey .223's as well. The Mini-14 can be found at nearly every gun show in the $350-$450 range (stick with the pre-bans). Mags are in the $15-$35 range. The trigger system is about $40, and the folding stock is about $90.

Have fun.
 
I have fired a Marlin 30-30, it kicks like a mule, snorts like a bull, and spits out an intimidating wad of lead.

The Mini-14 in comparison seems like a popgun, though the .223 is a capable round. I would reccomend the Mini-14 over the 30-30 lever gun if you've mostly just shot .22 rifles, I personaly don't do too well with the bigger round, I find that the noise is too much to try and shoot without hearing protection and an extended shooting session without a recoil pad leaves me with bruises.

The Mini-14 is a good little gun, and there's a conversion kit(several actualy) out there that lets you plink with .22 ammo, which makes it real cheap to feed.
 
I know this strays a bit from your question, but have you considered a 16" AR-15 instead of the Mini-14? The gun will certainly cost you more (you might be able to build a kit for $600 or so, or buy a complete rifle for around $700-$800). I bought a new Bushmaster Dissipator for $725 a few months ago and am very happy with it. I'm planning to build a second AR soon.

I too considered the Mini 14 (I think highly of Ruger firearms in general), because the price was considerably lower, but the catch is the cost of magazines. For a defensive rifle, you'll probably be wanting at least 5-10 high-capacity magazines. Maybe more, since you may not be able to get more in the future. You can still find good 30-round Military AR magazines for around $25 (with a little luck). The Ruger-brand high capacity magazines go for 2-3 times that or more if you can find them. And, from what I've read, the "after market" (non Ruger brand) magazines don't work well at all.

So, the bottom line is that when you factor in the price of a supply of magazines, the AR isn't really much (if any) more. And it is generally conceded to be a more accurate, better designed rifle. And, It'll be worth more if you ever decide to sell it. Just some food for thought.
 
Bastage; I've had both rifles. Currently I have a Win M94. I go camping and fishing alot in fairly remote areas. I like the 30-30 alot better in the woods. It doubles just fine for an urban gun too! You might as well forget finding ruger hi-cap mags. The only aftermarket hi-cap mags I would trust in the mini-14 are from the Precision Mag folks. They are still available from www.clips-n-stuff.com. but ya better hurry! Good luck.
 
If you decide to go with the Mini-14, you may be interested in my experience with one. I purchased a Stainless Steel Ranch Rifle with black plastic stock about four months ago.

1. It's fun to shoot. The caliber is mild and the semi-auto action further softens felt recoil. As another poster said, accurate follow-up shots are easy. (Well, see below.)
2, It's weight and length make it very handy and easy to carry.
3. It has a terrible trigger. My trigger pull gauge won't go high enough to read it, but it must be over 6 pounds. The pull is long and gritty, too.
4. The thin barrel gets very hot very fast. I think they call it the Ranch Rifle because it comes in mighty handy during branding season. Be careful slinging it over your shoulder afer a few shots if you are wearing a short sleeve shirt. This leads in to...
5. Poor to mediocre accuracy. Mine will shoot 2 moa, 5 shot groups. Once. From a cold barrel. All subsequent groups open quickly; 4-5 moa from a warm to hot barrel. You can see that this could be a problem with multiple attackers/sustained fire scenarios. This is definitely a "light use‹not a battle rifle"-type weapon. Other posters in other threads have had similar accuracy problems.
6. Length of pull is short. About like a Daisy Red Ryder. There are after-market stock extensions and butt pads made specifically to address this problem. Don't know if they make them for the plastic stock, though.
7. Brass goes. And goes. And goes. Mine ejects spent brass a measured 33 feet. This is a real problem at the range, and can make retrieval a real pain in the brush. However, it may be effective against multiple assailants approaching your 4 o'clock as you fire from your 12.

Otherwise, it's a great rifle. Seriously, I'd buy it again. For the price, it's a good buy. I considered AR-15-type rifles, and would've gotten one in a heartbeat (a Bushmaster), but for the prices. With the Ranch Rifle I got a weapon that *I'm* comfortable with out to 150 yards if I don't have to pull the trigger more than 5 or 10 times, AND I got 500 extra rounds of ammo (practice more!), AND I got a Kimber SS Classic‹‹all for the price of a good AR-15 clone.

If you go the Ranch Rifle route, check out a number of sources for mags. Prices vary greatly. As mentioned elsewhere, Precision Mags are good. My three 30-rounders are flawless. I have 8 other mags, 20 and 30 rnds, from various suppliers. Half the time nobody knows or is willing to tell you exactly who made them. Midway, Cheaper Than Dirt, and Cabela's are just a few to look at, who also offer a guarantee on function. I have three 20s from CTD that work without any failures. Two others were picked up at a gun show and work so poorly that they are reserved for range use only. By the way the 20s are a little handier, but may be harder to find. The 30s are too long when shooting from the bench or prone.

Check out Georgia Arms (georgia-arms.com) for .223 ammo. Very inexpensive and really first rate quality. I've put over 500 rounds, chosen randomly from 3,000 rounds, through the Ruger without any problems. The stuff is accurate too.

By the way, Clark, Volquartsen, and others can tune Mini-14s for superior accuracy, looks, and function. Don't bother. For that money you could get a really nice accurate AR-15 type, or go the route I did and get more guns and ammo.

My apologies for the length here, but I hope it will help you out. Good luck.
 
The above post is just about exactly my experience...I am <A href="http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=42317">selling mine</a> because I wanted long-range accuracy and because I tend to fire 200-400 rounds per range trip and the mini would warm up a bit. OTOH, I would be paying just about twice for the improvements. The mini fulfilled its original role, which was in-house fighting carbine, but the stated mission has changed.
My experience with precision mags has been equally happy, though I also got most USA mags to function reliably. Here's the trick: when loading, push in rounds from the front, don't justpush down...you will bend magazine lips that way.
 
Thanks everyone for all the advice and information. I think I am going to go with the Mini-14 Ranch Rifle as I just got back form a weekend in which I shot a 30-30 and a Mini-14 and was much happier with the Mini-14 for my purposes. However, I am still buying the 30-30 for hunting next spring. I just can't pass up a good deal when I am offered one.

bastage
 
A side note - I qualify as "living in a remote area", far from the 'authorities' (for what they're worth). One time that I've had to 'use a gun in anger' ex- (fired) farm hand that figured he could throw his weight around and rolled up an evening loaded with dutch courage, threatening us at our doorstep. My Marlin 336 was handy. My side of the converstion was just cranking the lever. It was conclusive to better manners and a quick departure.

Under these circumstances, the 30-30 was certainly more intimidating than the semi-auto would have been. The action and its sound is universally understood thanks to countless westerns.

Hasta pronto! Peter Knight
 
Elchimango - You're certainly right about the intimidating sound of a lever action. It's right up there along with racking a GM or a pump shotgun.
 
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