MIM parts (conclusion)

2

224

New member
Monday I decided to open a thread regarding MIM parts. My stipulation was that I only wanted to hear from shooters who had experienced first hand failures of their MIM parts. No second hand armchair quarterbacking.

The thread was active for the better part of a week and recieved over thirty posts. Most of the posters stayed within the guidelines I had established (though loosely at times) and I do appreiciate the effort.

However, in those thirty plus posts only one shooter commented on a first hand experience. This involved a broken barrel bushing. On further examination it was discovered that the bushing was a machined part, not a part made with MIM manufacturing. As such the broken bushing must be discounted.

Brian Bilby was the only person who posted first hand experience with broken MIM parts. Unfortunately, from an evidenciary standpoint Brians experiences have only limited value for several reasons.

1) Brian was not present when the parts failed. Therefore he can't verify the circumstances under which the parts failed. Nor can he state what kind of ammunition was used, as well as how many rounds had been fired at the time of failure.
2) As a pistolsmith specializing in the "tricking out" and building of 1911 style pistols Brian could be seen as a possibly biased source. He is afterall commenting on his competitions product.

Before you flame me on number two let me elaborate. If this inadvertently offends Brian I do appologize. I am not personally leveling any accusations at Brian. I don't know him (niether do most of you), I have seen several of his pistols though and they are of very high quality. He does know his business. However, from a totally objective and investigative standpoint these are factors that have to be taken into account.

What I was looking for were the experiences of shooting consumers who had purchased pistols with MIM parts. I had honestly expected more replies. There have been inumerable posts regarding problems with MIM parts. Most of these have been centerd on secondhand knowledge and opinion, not facts. Comments such as "I have a degree in rocket science and MIM parts are bad because..." or "These parts were machined in the old days and should still be..." seem to be the norm.

The thread was active for the better part of a week and not *one* shooter posted regarding a first hand failure, not one. The only conclusion that I can make is that MIM part failure is an issue that has been overblown. I own a pistol with MIM parts and haven't had a problem. I've owned pistols of the same design and have had those same machined parts fail. I'm not saying that MIM parts are better. Any part will faill sooner or later, MIM, machined, investment cast, sintered etc. In all honesty, if the MIM parts on my pistol fail I probably will have them replaced with machined parts, just in case. However,I'm not going to go to the extra cost of replacing them before they do, nor will it keep me from buying another pistol with MIM parts in the future.

In conclusion, the only judgement that I can make is that when well done MIM parts are perfectly functional. When made in a substandard fashion MIM parts will fail, just like a part made with another proccess. If there is a problem with porosity or heat treating, if there are fractures in the parts then this should be evident within the first 500 rounds or so. My advice is that if you purchase a pistol with MIM parts shoot it enough to make sure that it's reliable.

But then again, shouldn't you do that with any pistol ?
 
224,

A few problems with your conclusions.

1)Other threads on here have had posters mention first hand parts failures. I can think of two with broken extractors on here.

2)You're definition of first hand is very narrow. Several of the parts failures I speak of were in fact ones that happened when I was on range with the person who was shooting the gun and did see them happen. According to you though, this is not first hand since it wasn't my gun and I wasn't shooting it. I saw a front sight fly off a gun and saw a slide stop break. These were people shooting during our IDPA matches that I run. One gun was new with less than 500 rounds of factory ammo through it.

3)How many people have been on these and other boards talking about their slide stop problems? Many, many people and why is that? Because the parts were either warped or out of spec and that can be attributed to the process not being done right.

4)You could be considered narrow minded in your approach. You say several times you don't want engineers to use that approach. Well, that's being blind. Engineering is based on physics and science. If the physics and science tells you that MIM has problems, and it does, then saying that is not valid because you didn't have it happen to you personally is foolish. Sure all processes have flaws and merits, but to just dismiss a scientific explanation because you don't think it fits in is wrong.

You can say I'm biased, but I'm not. Am I offended by your comments? Sort of. Everytime I have the balls to say that Kimbers do have problems I am called a Kimber basher, biased, or picking on a competitor. Don't hear that when I point out faults with Colt or Springfield. Why is that? Kimber is no competition to me at all. Take their top of the line pistols and compare them to mine, or Rock Rivers guns and we kick their ass every time on quality, fit and features for less money. I should love Kimber as lately they have been keeping me busy with their sloppy quality control. Also, Colt and Springfield have made hundreds of thousands to millions more 1911's than Kimber, but I have seen more Kimbers coming through the doors to be fixed or tuned and I know several other gunsmiths have as well. The fact is I make one of a kind custom guns, they make production guns. No contest or comparison and thus they are not competition to me. I don't even try to compare them to my guns, Steve Clark, Heinie, or any other custom gun maker. Like comparing a Ford Pinto to a Ferrari. However I do compare them to their equal competitors like Colt, Springfield and others and when I see problems with parts on the Kimbers that are not with the others, then that says something about those particular parts.

Fact is, if MIM was really good, then everybody else would be doing it to save money, but they are not and that is because it's not consistent in quality. I know one distributor was selling McCormick MIM hammers for under $9 once, which means that he only paid about $5 for them. And that is why these people are using them, they are cheap and they make more money off the guns. Call up any gunsmith or pistolsmith specializing in 1911's and tell them you want a gun built using the MIM hammers, sears or extractors and they will tell you no. Why? Because they don't want to make something that will possibly fail down the road. If you go to th gunspot forum and look on the handgun forum, even Richard Heinie was saying he won't use them. I know other gunsmiths who love Kimbers and recommend them, Dane Burns for one, will tell you that the MIM parts are crap.

All in all, I think that while some may say that I or other gunsmiths are biased, it's not true. We see and handle more 1911's in one month than most people will in a lifetime and we talk to many other people during the course of our business and we see patterns form of gun and parts failures and use this experience to our and our customers advantage. If you want to keep or use MIM parts in your gun, then that is your choice. Am I saying your gun will break or fail. No. I'm saying that there is a history of certain parts failing and that it's a possibility. Shooter be aware. Personally, my life is worth more than a few dollars in new parts and brand loyalty.

If one wants to do real research on this, go to this forum, Gunspot, Shooters and other forums and do a search on any Kimber related thread and read what people post. Just because someone doesn't respond to this thread doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They either don't come here, didn't see the thread of don't wish to participate. The fact that others have commented on first hand failures on other threads means that it does happen. Also, call up several well known pistolsmiths and ask their opinions and if they use MIM parts to build their guns with.

You asked me what parts I have seen fail, and what my experinces were, then dismiss them because you don't like the response. That's you call. Just don't expect to be considered impartial or unbiased either if you are not willing to listen to the information that you solicited in the first place.

Brian
 
Brian,

If you took offense I do appologize. As I said, that wasn't my intention. I never said you *were* biased. I simply stated that you might be construed as being such by the nature of your occupation.

As for my narrow definition of the topic is concerned, I tried to keep it as specific as possible in order to avoid a digression of the thread. This seems to happen far to often on forums of this type. As for a first hand criteria, if you were there when it happened vs hearing it second hand from a friend then that is first hand. If you had pointed that out in your post it would have helped clarify.
 
224,

I find the whole first hand thing, while somewhat valid, there is also a logical fallacy present in it. If someone comes on here and tells you that their gun broke part A, that's still second hand knowledge because you were not present to see it break first hand. You are taking their word for it. Now why is it valid for them to tell you and not valid for them to tell me or anyone else and us to relay it? It's still the same, and it still happened. See the fault in it?

I think by your previous posts you mentioned you were in law enforcement, so let me make an analogy. You get called to a scene of a rape/murder. You find 9mm Federal shell casings on the scene, hair and semen samples from the perp and other evidence. Matches the MO in other rapes in the area that have been going on for awhile. Later in the neighborhood you find a guy covered in blood, packing a 9mm pistol with federal ammo. You take him into custody because you suspect him of the crime. Ballistics matches the gun and ammo, DNA matches both the blood and the semen. His fingerprints match those on scene. You have witnesses who say that they heard him brag about the crimes. You go to court, but then something happens. The judge throws out the DNA, fingerprints and ballistics tests because he doesn't want any rocket science used in court. He throws out the witness statements as they are second hand information. He tells you that your 10 plus years of on the job experience in similar cases and his previous criminal record is invalid because you did not see Jack Black personally rape and shoot the victim. Would this make you happy. I think not.

Fact still is that I'm using my personal experience of what parts I see broken or screwed up. When you see the same parts from the same manufacturer coming through broken or mismanufactured, that is not second hand experience, it's first hand. If you don't see that same problem present in other companies parts, then it tells you that the fault is not with the design of the gun or part but with that particular manufacturer of part. I see problems with other parts with other companies, and pass that along and most of the time it is due to poor manufacturing techniques or processes. It's OK to point it out when it's Colt and Springfield, and it's accepted, but when you do it with Kimber I see most people go nuts and fly off the handle. Colt has gone to MIM extractors in their 1911's now, and talking to other gunsmiths they are seeing them come through with broken hooks. People say that this maybe because of how they are treated, but I haven't hardly ever seen it except in the cases of cast or MIMed extractors. That tells me that they are more prone to breakage.

I can go on, but won't. You all get the point. You can put whatever parts you want in your gun. I have learned over the years what parts are the best and which ones aren't. Sure I could make a few extra bucks on my guns by using some of these parts in question, but to me quality is more important than money and I want to build a gun that I'm comfortable will go bang every time and is worth risking ones life on. Making a quick buck and turning inventory are down the priority list a bit.

Brain
 
John Boy,

To replace the slide stop, hammer, sear and extractor it would run around $95.00. You might want to think about replacing the plastic mainspring housing too.

Brian
 
John,
Have a look at Brian's website www.1911custom.com

He has a section on Kimber upgrade packages.

I currently have a 5" Kimber Classic Custom undergoing the deluxe package and one of my shooting partners just sent Brian a Kimber Compact for the standard package (plus a few other goodies). Your Compact won't need to have the barrel bushing replaced, as it doesn't have one.

Rosco
 
Thanks a bunch for the info. I'm debating
a compact CDP, a Baer Stinger and an officer
sized ground-up custom from a local gunsmith.

I handled the CDP today at a store. Have to admit, it felt cheesey.
 
Thanks Brian but I really don't need analogies to figure it out. I'm not quite as dumb as a limestone fence post. I was simply trying to make the best of this imperfect electronic medium by narrowing the data base as much as possible. You know as well as I do that if I hadn't made that attempt all we would have had was a thread full of "my friend joe says this..." posts.

You've obviously taken offense where none was intended, as I said before I APOLOGIZE. I never said that you didn't know your business. In fact I believe I stated that you did. But then again, that's that illogical first hand experience coming into play so perhaps we'd better just ignore it.

I've got a better idea. Let's just forget that I brought the subject up in the first place.
 
Actually, I posted about the "out of spec" slide stop problem that I had with my Kimber. I assumed the dimensional problem was not related to the MIM process, now I am hearing that the problem could have been in the cooling. Anyway, a MIM part doesn't need to be busted to be inoperative.

Also, during the same time frame there was another thread about a broken MIM part.

I hardly think a sample of thirty responses is by any means an exhaustive study.

OK, now hear this. Unless members of TFL post first hand experiences with Glock KB's on this board in the next ten days I am going to conclude that the Glock KB problem is a lie fabricated by Glock bashers. Kinda silly isn't it?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top