Militia leaders warn they will fight church's seizure

Oatka

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Militia leaders warn they will fight church's seizure

INDIANAPOLIS -- A $6 million tax feud is intensifying at an Indianapolis church as several militia leaders vow they will use force if...


Associated Press

Last updated 03:12 AM, EST, Tuesday, May 09, 2000

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) -- A $6 million tax feud is intensifying at an Indianapolis church as several militia leaders vow they will use force if necessary to defend the church from the federal government.

The Internal Revenue Service is seeking to collect the penalties, interest and taxes that it says Indianapolis Baptist Temple failed to withhold from employees between 1987 and 1993.

The Rev. Gregory A. Dixon, church pastor, is refusing to pay up, and he believes the federal government will try to seize the Baptist Temple at some point. The 44-year-old has asked supporters to leave their guns at home and resist nonviolently if that should happen.

"We're not going to give up the buildings, the Lord's property, voluntarily," he said. "We've said we're not going to use violence. If we thought our guns could outshoot their guns, we might. But the federal government has far bigger guns than we do."

But in a report to be aired tonight, Indianapolis television station WTHR says some militia members made a "reconnaissance tape, describing where snipers might position themselves" to defend the church.

"I think the majority of militia groups that have called in here, they have been very concerned about a few people that have espoused these things," Dixon told The Indianapolis Star for a report in its Tuesday editions.

The church argues it should not become an agent of the government and that the people who work there are self-employed ministers.

A U.S. district court didn't agree. But the church has appealed to the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Chicago, where a hearing is scheduled Thursday.

About 300 to 500 church supporters are expected to rally at the hearing.

"All across the country, hundreds of militia groups are watching what's happening in Indianapolis. A lot of them wanted to go in shooting," said the Rev. Norm Olson, commander of the Northern Michigan Regional Militia.

"We have vowed there would never be another Waco, another Mount Carmel tragedy, and we mean that," Olson said.

Roger Stalcup, commander of the Southern Indiana Regional Militia, also warned that militias are prepared to use force to prevent another Waco.

More than 80 members of the Branch Davidian religious cult died in a 1993 fire at their Mount Carmel compound near Waco, Texas. Many militia members and some unaffiliated churches such as Baptist Temple believe the fire was set by federal agents.

"It's my understanding ... several members of the congregation are going to occupy that church, and they're not going to come out peacefully," Stalcup said. "If those people start to get killed, that's what I mean about this turning into another Waco."

But Stalcup, who leads militias in 19 southern Indiana counties, said he thinks federal agents have learned from the fire at Waco. Meanwhile, Olson said he won't bring a show of force to Indianapolis without Dixon's invitation.

"I think he is going to do his demonstration Ghandi-style. It wouldn't be the way I would do it. But again, I'm not him," Olson said.

© 2000 Indiana Newspapers Inc. AP materials © 2000 Associated Press.
 
Look for this situation to come to a head in oh, late October or so, with a summer full of news stories about the milita's "fully automatic baby-killing assault rifles" and more about the "scouting for sniper positions" etc. Also look for analyses of how the lost tax "income" would have been used to feed poor inner-city babies, who will no doubt be shown to us ad nauseum for the rest of the year (feeling particularly cynical today).
 
It's called "tax evasion."

While nobody likes paying taxes, it is pretty clear that unless you hold an exempt status, you must. They apparently have no such exemption, and subsequently should have paid taxes.

I approve of appealing to the courts. But they lost...

That the militia in the area are jumping on this will only serve to paint them in poor light with the majority of tax paying citizens.

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited May 11, 2000).]
 
Based ONLY upon what's in the second paragraph of the article: While church property and church incomes are not taxed, aren't preachers supposed to pay income tax? I certainly don't see how the staff of a church has salaries exempt from income tax.

An individual person is not a church, as I understand the legal usage of the term. Employees, whether ministers or not, are not "church", either.

Looks like to me that somebody's ignorance and stubbornness got them in a heap of trouble!

Art

"Ignorance is curable; stupidity is forever."
 
1)An Income tax was never to be inacted.

2)There was never to be Federal police.

3)There was never to be an IRS.

If the FED sends in armed police/troops to take this church, then they're dead wrong! It doesn't matter what twisted laws the Oligarchs have come up with in the last century. Not all laws are good or right.

I'm not religious, or a tax evader, but enough is enough. No more Federal police assaulting things!
 
This reminds me of "Cracking The Liberty Bell" by J.J. Johnson. A good read. I don't know if it's still on the net or not.
 
Points well taken, all. I don't necessarily agree with the, "we don't have to pay your steenkin' taxes" argument, either, but I just get suspicious whenever the IRS and other feds start making noise and smoke over anything involving a tax matter and a church. Call it a Pavlovian response.
 
It sounds to me like the IRS is saying the Church needs to pay the taxes. And the Church is saying that the ministers are "sub-contracted" so-to-speak, therefore, THEY are responsible for their OWN taxes.

Frankly, I believe that Shin-Tao said it correctly.

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
www.cphv.com
 
Some good knowledgeable post here and some not so knowledgeable. Consider who or what has authority over a citizen of any State in this Republic? Does our federal government have authority to tax every business and citizen in this Republic? If so where or what is the source of that authority? The Constitution is the only legitimate source of powers of authority granted to the federal government. The 10th Amendment clearly says the federal government has only the powers granted and those powers are articulated in/by the Constitution.

Is the XVI Amendment constitutional? I don't know, some say it never was ratified properly. One thing I do know about taxes, the Constitution does grant the federal government the power to abuse citizens or manipulate them with a tax code. It is not the purpose of the government of this Republic to manipulate citizens nor business with/by a tax code. In abusing its authority with a tax code the federal government has abdicated its contract with We, the people, and lost its right to govern this Republic.

So, what do we do? We have only three powers over government, the vote jury duty and the gun. If we can make it until November then I suggest we vote third party. Nah, lay all those politically induced fears aside and use your own mind. Ask yourself how much abuse are you willing to take before defending yourself? Consider not using the power of the vote will lead to using the power of the gun. Right now it is still your choice, that is if we make it til November. As yet no third party candidate has harmed anyone from a political office and republicans and democrats have harmed every American for years now. Time is wasting, better make up your mind so you have time to gather help in voting before November.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The Internal Revenue Service is seeking to collect the penalties, interest and taxes that it says Indianapolis Baptist Temple failed to withhold from employees between 1987 and 1993.
[/quote]

This is BS!! If my employer, or any of yours failed to withhold sufficient funds for taxes, they (IRS) comes after me!
I know, it's happened to me before because my employer couldn't get their head out of the sphyncter. The IRS did NOT go after my employer.

This is what they claim it to be, harrasment, and violation of the 1st Amendment.
To confiscate the properties of the Church, and NOT go after the individuals who are supposed to have their income taxed is wrong.
Why does anyone have trouble seeing this for what it really is?

Let's see, I suppose the IRS would work with the FBI to deteremine what the next weeks Sermon should be. I think it would be something like:

"Thou shalt not FU*$ with the IRS!"
And the Pastor would extrapolate upon examples of why. (S)He would use analogies to equate for the terminally stupid, or thick headed goers. After which, the plate would be passed for the members to offer to the almighty High God, IRS..

Wasn't there a lesson to be learned where gold and silver was used to honor pagan Gods.

Best Regards,
Don

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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited May 11, 2000).]
 
As usual we know only what both sides are telling us. The church seems to claim that the Feds are going after them for not with-holding their employees taxes. In this case the Feds should be going after the employees. The Feds simply claim, through their pawns in the media, that they are withholding taxes.

What are we to think?

I have lost all faith in the FedGov. and do not trust a word they say. I wonder if the militia would be backing them so fully if they were merely tax evaders?

Obviously no one here knows what the real truth of the matter is.

But if I had a hope, it would be that the Feds lose their case. If they win and they try to come with their Stormtroopers to the church - I hope the militia stands strong and puts up a good fight.

It will just add fuel to the fire and further polarize the nation. Many more will join our cause and many will turn against us. But the sides will be more clear.

Balls to trying to sound moderate and all that crap. Either you believe in freedom or you believe in the Socialist Nanny State. We aren't going to get the soccer moms to believe in freedom. They will happily trade freedom in for their security.

Socialism and Freedom are Incompatible.

Viva La Resistance!!

------------------
Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
tbellomo@home.com
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
 
From what I read earlier this year, a church MUCT file under sec 503(c) as a tax-exempt religious org. The church in question did NOT, instead believing that this was a violation of the 1st Amendment.

The IRS said "if you want to not pay taxes, file that 503(c)". NO? Then pay!

Pretty simple really. Yes, this is s REAL church; they are just strict Constitutionalists.
 
AllenHampton: I won't get into the argument about whether or not the XVIth Amendment was properly ratified. I don't know enough to comment.

However: Any Amendment which is passed by Congress and is properly ratified by the States is just that--an amendment. It is, by definition, Constitutional.

Also, any existing Amendment can be removed by the same process, as witness "Prohibition".

Regards, Art
 
Considering this,go to:http://lljohnson.com/ ...and read "cracking the liberty bell",great read!

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"i do believe that where there is a choice between cowardice and violence,I would advise violence" Ghandi
 
An interesting discussion. I hope you don't mind a reply that may raise more questions than it answers. The XVI Amendment, allowing an income tex, was ratified on Feb 3, 1913. So the Constitution, through this amendment, allows the tax, until such time as the Amendment is repealed.

Now where things get interesting is this: what happens if the IRS seizes the property of the church to collect on the debt? Under Amendment I, if they allow the church to operate while the debt is being paid, after having seized the property, are they in violation of Amendment I for ..."respecting an establishment of religion"?

Or, if they sell the property seized to pay off the tax debt, are they "...prohibiting the free exercise thereof" by taking away their place of worship?

The Constitutional issues are far deeper than they appear at first glance.

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When they try to take away my 2nd Amendment rights, tell them Hell's comin' and I'm comin' with it! Armed and Dangerous
 
Who knows whether the XVI was properly ratified or not? Americans have accepted the XVI and lived under its corruption so long they think it is law. As jurors Americans have failed to protect each other from injustice, an unjust law and/or an unjust application of the law. In voting they keep electing people from the political parties who keep on enacting unconstitutional legislation.

Digging a little deeper in the Constitution to the depth of intent I believe we will find there is no constitutional intent for the purpose of the federal government to control every citizen and business with a tax code. The tenth amendment clearly articulates the power granted the federal government.

Well one poster on this board yesterday summed it up pretty much with something like " I don't care what the Constitution says". So much for America the Republic where freedom rings.

The Constitution is the Law that protects our freedom from an oppressive government. We either enforce the Constitution or lose our freedoms and losing we are big time.
 
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