military shotguns ?

H

huntsman

New member
After watching a TV show about the battle in Jennin I wondered if the Israeli army uses shotguns ? It would seem this type of house to house close quarter fighting is where a shotgun would shine , but everytime I see solider on the tube they are carrying a M16 or some type rifle.
If they (Israeli troops ) don't carry shotguns does this mean as a military weapon the shotgun doesn't really have a place in a fight ?
 
does this mean as a military weapon the shotgun doesn't really have a place in a fight ?
Click to expand...

Not just because they don't have them. Because they really do not have a place in a fight. There are defensive uses, as well as a few special cases where they might be used more as tools than as weapons, but overall...they are not used very often by anyone. This may run contrary to what Hollywood would lead you to believe, but it's the way it is. As far as close quarters stuff goes, the M16 variants are much better weapons in a tight spot. The ins and outs of this can be explained in great detail by THE Pat Rogers. I don't have the credibility he does, so I wont get into the issue as it is sure to start a mini flame war. Somehow I doubt the flamers will come out of the woodwork if it comes from him.

Use PM to invite him to the thread if you want...
 
Fix is right. The shotgun is rapidly being relegated to the role of a special purpose weapon. An intermediate rifle caliber carbine is much better suited to most combat roles.

Many police departments are either replacing or augenting the shotguns they carry in the patrol cars with carbines. Shotguns will still serve duty when it's time to breech doors or launch gas or specialty (i.e. less lethal) ammunition. Although the Israelis have developed an excellent breeching round that fit's on an M16 like the old rifle grenade. Our Army is looking hard at it.
I predict that in 10 years you won't see many shotguns either in police cars or the military.

Jeff
 
Much as I like my shotguns, if it really hits the fan I'd want something like an M14 instead. I'd even pick my Mdeol 94.

The ammo's bulky and heavy. The weapon's not nearly as rugged as a combat arm needs to be. Capacity and range are limited.

The shotgun is indeed a fearsome weapon at close range and for interpersonal confrontations. But for dealing with lots of targets at longer ranges, it comes up short.

The right tool for the job....
 
There's not a lot of call on the battlefield for a heavy, heavy-recoiling, slow-firing, short-range weapon with a small magazine capacity.

It's good as a home-defense weapon (some feel a short carbine like an AR-15 16", M1 carbine, etc. may be a better option) and it's great as a special purpose tool, but it's not something you want to use to take on the "enemy."
 
Yeah! In close quarters, I much prefer some kind of TACTICAL carbine, preferably an AR15 variant. I need a LOT of lasers, lights, and optics on it and extra magazines hanging off it. This way I ruin it's "lightness" but will still brag about how light it is. Anything to be tactical ya know. This way when I pick up the TACTICAL gunrags, I ALWAYS see something simular to my rig on the cover, enforcing my belief that I am a TACTICAL expert.
Further still, I will buy all the gear a SWAT team member has, including tactical boots and goggles, and every once in a while, put it all on and hold my TACTICAL carbine in front of a mirror. Just to see if it all fits rights...
When visiting a gunstore I will always find a way to say "flash-bang" and "moa" in any conversation.
:)
 
The shotgun will always have a place on a battlefield... now and in the future.
(do a google search on Neostead)
It's got flexability that all other weapons lack. It will always be on tap for duties such as breaching and police functions.
Coast Guard wont leave dock without one.
Short Range? Well within most combat distances. With slugs loaded you can go out to 100 yards.

Yeah... Shotguns are history. :rolleyes:
 
George,

I don't think you understand what we're saying. We're not speculating, or making predictions. We're reporting what is actually happening. Sure, it's used for breaching and to some extent, as a destructive device, but it is being phased out slowly in law enforcement (which I think is a mistake) and it quite simply isn't used "on the battlefield". It may very well end up being used on the battlefield tommorrow, but that use will not be planned in advance...just coincidental. The Coast Guard doesn't spend a whole lot of time "on the battlefield" as we're referring to it, so what they do is no more relevant than what the Texas Rangers do. I don't know about you, but if I were facing an adversary who is very likely, if not definately, armed with a rifle, I'll take a rifle. I can't fathom any realistic combat situation where a shotgun trumps a rifle.

...and I'd sure hate to hump 300 rounds of assorted 12 ga ammo.
 
i have been experimenting with attaching a housecat
to the bottom rail of my RAS and a slice of
buttered toast to the top rail

the antigravity field generated, allows me to hover,
but the rifles recoil causes the muzzel to flip,
and then i spin off in an uncontrolled tumble
 
DZ -
laugh.gif
 
Some police departments might be replacing shotguns with carbines in ther cruisers, but that doesn't always mean that is the right thing to do. Americans are notorious for forgetting history. Back in the late 1920's and the 1930's, police were armed with Thompson submachine guns and some even had BAR's. The result was that a lot of innocent bystanders got hurt. The argument was that the police needed these weapons to counter the more heavily-armed criminals they were encountering who had Thompsons (much like the argument for hi-cap 9mm pistols for police today.)

Eventually, some carbine-equipped cop is going to let loose and kill some bystanders and, once more, they'll have to re-learn the lesson that in crowded cities, you can't have high-powered projectiles flying all over the place. And the shotgun will be back in police cruisers where it belongs. If the police feel they need to be armed like the army, then perhaps we better re-think where we're at as a nation and a people and where we're headed if a virtual army is acceptable for law enforcement.
 
Except LARGE numbers of NEW troops enter the military with YEARS of Pump Shotgun experience every year. LESS TRAINING NEEDED TO USE.

The pump shotgun is SUPERIOR to the handgun in most guard duty circumstances too. NOT EVERYBODY IS A HEAVYLY ARMED COMMANDO!

More reliable than a M-16 under ALL Circumstances.

MUCH more powerful than ANY handgun in military service.

Controlled Penetration for in building use where limiting innocent causualties.

It isn't useless now or ever, it just is different from a frontline battle rifle.
 
As far as I can tell, the US is the only military that uses the shotgun.

Must have something to do with our evil gun culture:D
 
I guess the thing that struck me most was the scenes on Nightline were not what I would consider typical "battlefield " I aggree that a rifle would be superior . but execept for the stone type buildings they have overthere this looked a lot like the urban/suburban area a lot of folks here live in.

So what if your counting on a shotgun for protection if TSHTF ?

the way I look at it is the Israelis as a people are under the threat of attack all the time but don't use a tac shotguns then are they really what to use in these types of situations ?

I don't know maybe I'm putting to much thought in this, but I'm just trying to figure out if a tactial shotgun really has a place in my personal battery instead of say an AR15 :D
 
Huntsman, the shotgun is a valuable tool in emergencies, but not one that's universally effective.

If the Revolution starts w/o me,centerfire rifles will be handy, and at least one 870 with lots of ammo. There'll be a sidearm also. The other 870s will serve on picket duty, or to arm neighbors I trust.

Others here in Casa McC will have rifles too. I'm not too big on the AR,but a Model 94 30-30 Winchester would make a good E&E tool, so would a 10-22 with proper accessories.

Neighbors here I DON'T have to arm include a cop with a good battery, an engineer who shoots both Sporting Clays and pistol, and a Boy Scout leader with an 1100 and some deer rifles.We all love to buy ammo.

Two of those mentioned have observed the proverbial pachyderm. We've discussed emergency measures and resources. That kind of preparation will do more than any tricked AR, FAL or AK.

And, being this is the 'burbs, there's few shot opps over 50 yards anyway. An 870 in trained, cool
hands will suffice.
 
Shotguns were issued during the 1990-91 Desert Shield/Desert Storm campaign when it was found that the Iraqis were building defensive trench emplacements.

In a place like Afghanistan the shotgun would have little purpose. Ranges are far too great. In the cave complexes they may have some use.

If the US goes back to war in a balmy tropical setting, I think you'll see the shotgun make a big comeback.

As for a carbine replacing a shotgun in an individuals "tactical" package....

Ye Gods... Why does everyone expect the Hottentots to invade the 'hood, requiring you to strap on your "tactical Homeowner's Association" suburban camoflage suite (discarded Starbucks cups, pages from the Wall Street Journal, and grass clippings) and clear Mrs. O'Flimminy's rec room?

If someone actually does invade my neighborhood, I'm going to do a strategic withdrawal to the upper floor of my home, grab my shotgun, and shoot the first through last individuals who decide to try to invade my home.

My granola eating, tree hugging, gun grabbing ****head neighbors? Let them fend for themselves. Maybe they can engage the invaders with a rousing chorus of Kumbaya until the police arrive. If they don't survive? Serves them right.

Anyone who wants to play urban commando for them? More power to ya.
 
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