Military ever considered a .243 round ?

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Why doesn't the military consider a round like the .243 or something a little larger (ie between .223 and .308) as a surplus round?

Sounds like the .308 round was too heavy in large numbers, and the .223 though producing sufficient wound channels, doesn't buck the wind/penetrate obstacles as well.

opinions ?
 
I think this has been discussed before

Certainly, .243-ish rounds would be good for this application.But, a big reason AGAINST IT is that it's just as big as .308 to carry, but not as powerful.

If you could get similar performance out of a smaller case, it would be something to consider.
 
The 6mm Lee Navy (aka .236 Navy) was used on trials by the USN in 1895, but never entered service.

The 6mm SAW was developed in the early '70s by the US Army for a Squad Automatic Weapon project. It too was not adopted.

I don't know why the US military never went to a 6mm service cartridge; it does seem like the best of both worlds. The ammo would be lighter than .30 cal., with better terminal effectiveness than .22 cal.
 
1.62 mm diameter would not save much weight. The .243 win and .308 win are the same case, I think. so the weight savings would not be noticible until you got to some insane amount of ammo that noone could carry anyway.
 
Actualy the 6mm Lee was in issue to the navy and marines for a few years and was used in Cuba even. They had a major bore erosion problem not to mention the lodgistics of using 2 rifle rounds.
 
Major Factor

6mm, is HOT, bore to bullet size ratio / gas rato's way out there......in other words, under bore sized for the amount of hot gases, and no way for escape except through bleeding past bullet.....
Throat erosion, and heat (Quickly), substantially reduced barrel lives.
Not, cost effective..........
 
It doesn't have to be .243 winchester ya know. A higher pressure version of the 6mm PPC would be a miracle round for infantry arms. It would be good enough to have the velocity and fragmentation of .223, but also have the clout to use in SAWs and LMGs. I think if you thickened the base on the 6mm PPC a very tiny bit, and then thickened the casing base up a bit as well, it could take 50,000 PSI. Throw a higher pressure powder in and you'd have a round that is 80 grains and clocking roughly 3200-3400 FPS. That would be devastating. Unlike .223 there could be little question about it's capabilities both as a penetrator and a man stopper. It would be hell on armor also.
 
6mm SAW - The Best Military Cartridge that Never Was

lawcarts.jpg

Excerpt from Guns Review International, February 1996 by Anthony Williams

"....... in a series of experiments conducted by British, American and (possibly) Russian agencies to discover the ideal military small arms calibre. In the late 1960s, the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield began a detailed theoretical analysis of the striking energy needed to disable soldiers with various levels of protection, and the ballistics required to deliver that energy at battle ranges for a number of different calibres. The conclusion was that the optimum calibre would lie between 6mm and 6.5mm, and an experimental 6.25mm cartridge (based on the abortive 7mm round) was developed which was claimed to have significant advantages over both the 5.56mm and 7.62mm calibres. Performance proved to be virtually equal to the 7.62mm at up to 600 metres, with recoil and ammunition weight much closer to those of the 5.56mm.

At the same time, the US Army realised the need for a light machine gun with a longer effective range (out to 800 metres) than the 5.56mm cartridge could provide but appreciably less weight than the 7.62mm M60 MG. Their research led to the development of the 6mm SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon) cartridge. A relatively heavy bullet combined with a moderate velocity were selected for the optimum long-range performance. In the event, weapons firing improved 5.56mm ammunition were selected instead, largely to avoid the supply problems created by the use of three small-arms calibres. More recently, it has emerged that Russian armament firms, who had earlier copied NATO in producing a small-calibre (5.45mm) cartridge, are now offering weapons in a new 6mm calibre."

-- Kernel
 
GlockTen,

The Winchester-Lee straight pull rifle, chambered in 6mm Lee Navy, was semi-standard issue for the Navy and some Marine units for about 10 years, from 1895 until about 1905.

I believe that Marines in Peking during the Boxer Rebellion used this round.
 
Are you forgeting 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser?

There was a experiment in one of the gun magazines I can't find at the moment about wildcatting the 7.62X39.

Most of the variants were not interesting except the 6X39.

They claimed 2700 FPS with a 80 grain bullet, sort of a 7X30 waters in a semi auto with a Spitzer bullet.

I would love a built in the USA SKS in that caliber.
 
Zorro, you are describing the very same 6mm round that I just described above. In my experience the top load you can safely give this round is 48,000 PSI. If that case were thicked a little, a higher pressure powder could be used and you could get up to 50,000 or even 54,000, which would give you monster velocity with a nice 80 grain bullet. With the right bullet this would knock the socks off 5.56 and even in many respects .308. The weight would be more than 5.56 but big deal, it would be a much better round, and one that could without question be used in rifles, SAWs, and even some GPMGs.

Any of you who truly understand the ways of the AK are well aware that they can be configured so as to have very little felt recoil. This high power 6mm round would have a bit more kick, but not much, and due to the higher pressure, it would not need much in the way of a gas system, so it would not be moving much mass up there to rock the gun even more.

I'm a big admirer of the 6mm PPC, I think it's a wonderful round with huge potential for the future, but it's not being given enough attention, and certainly there is not enough affordable brass out for it.
 
I would prefer a 100 grain projectile at or close to 3000 fps. My custom Mauser (hopefully finished by hunting season), I had initially planned to have in .250 Savage, but I decided to go for the better sectional density and higher velocity of the 6mm.

The 6 mil Rem (based on 7x57mm) would be too large a case to have significant advantage over 7.62x51mm. I do believe packing this performance level- or, very close to it- in a shorter case would be quite doable. I might even settle for a 95 grainer @ 2950 fps, but I would need to look at sectional density first.
 
(from the reload bench website)
The 6.5 x 50mm military cartridge was loaded with a 139 grain bullet at 2500 fps in a 32" barrel.
 
The following 6.5mm military rounds can be found in the military section of "Cartridges of the World."

  • 6.5x53.5mm Daudeteau. Introduced in France in 1895 for the French Navy. Also adopted by Uruguay from 1895 to 1898.
  • 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer, or 6.5 Greek. Popular sporting cartridge in both Europe, and in the United States prior to World War II. This is one of the primary cartridges used by "Karamajo <sp?> Bell in his elephant hunting days in Africa. The high sectional density and bullet construction gave serious penetration on elephant skulls.
  • 6.5x53R Mannlicher, 6.5 Dutch, 6.5 Romanian. An earlier, rimmed version of the 6.5 Greek. Also saw sporting use in Europe and, to a lesser degree, in the US.
  • 6.5x50 Arisaka. The standard military round in Japan from 1897 until the end of World War II. The least powerful of the 6.5 military cartridges, but wonderfully efficient. I've often thought that this cartridge would make a splendid light rifle chambering for a youth or the recoil sensitive.
  • 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser. No introduction needed.
  • 6.5x58mm Portugeses Vergueiro. Portugese military round from the late 1800s until the late 1930s.
  • 6.5x52 Mannlicher Carcano, 6.5mm Italian. Standard Italian military cartridge from 1891 until the end of World War II. Most famous (imfamous) for being used by Lee Harvey Oswald to kill President Kennedy.
 
I also think the British were looking at .280 in a bullpup configuration, the round had good potential but our ordiance folks squelched the idea and ramrodded through the .308 in the M14.......well thats how I remember it....fubsy.
 
Fubsy,

Yep, the British had two run-ins with replacing the .303...

The first was a .276 caliber that was designed in concert with the Pattern 13 rifle (what would later be put into service as the US Model 1917 Enfield).

WW I killed off that project before it ever really got off the ground.

That cartridge, though, provided a lot of input for the American 7mm experiment, the .276 Petersen, which is the round the Garand was originally developed with.

After WW II the British again experimented with 7mm, this time the .280 Enfield, but that was killed off by American insistance that NATO standardize on the 7.62.
 
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