Midnight stop (Spectre vs Roswell PD)

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Spectre

Staff Alumnus
In January, I was stopped because of an expired tag. The officer, R. Battle, was courteous and professional. I handed him my license and CCL (which he looked at, and did not comment on), and fumbled around looking for my insurance info. Officer Battle, I noted, approached the vehicle in a tactically correct way, but not one that would offend the average joe. A commendable job, in all respects.

About 0018 Sunday morning 3-7-99, I was on my way to the club I work in on weekends, when I realized I had forgotten some Photon Microlights (http://littleriver.datasys.net/) I meant to bring in. I pulled into a business to turn around. I noticed a car behind me about 0019, and realized it was a patrol unit. The lights came on and stop occurred 0020. I immediately rolled down my window, and pulled my stop information out. I had my hands visible when the officer approached, and I asked why I had been stopped. He asked what I had been doing at the business he saw me in? I replied that I was turning around, and handed him a sheet containing copies of my DL, CCL, insurance card, and my autoclub card. He glanced at it, and asked what the one at the bottom was? I told him CCL, and he asked if it was on my person.
When informed it was, he had me release my seat belt with my left hand, and slowly step out of the vehicle. I was directed to place my hands on my van roof. The officer slid my pack around to the back, and removed my P11. He then patted me down.

I was directed to step to the front of my vehicle, and asked if I had any additional weapons. I advised of my impact baton between the seats. (I was in my security uniform, and the officer had been told my destination.) I forgot my 17" EDMF knife in the back, but the officer evidently did not notice it as he leaned into my driver's compartment and removed my ASP.

He had me get back into my vehicle, and was gone awhile as he presumably ran my license for warrants, my CCL, and my Kel-tec SN. When he returned, he handed my magazine back to me, and then went around to the passenger side, where he deposited my P11, ASP, and ammo in seperate places.

He then thanked me for my cooperation, and advised that he was "just doing his job". I noticed that another officer had arrived to back him up at this time.

I would not fault anyone for wishing to be safe, but feel there was considerable difference between stop #1 and stop #2. At the latter time, I was reminded of what it feels like to be treated like a criminal when one has done nothing wrong, and wondered if the car that passed as I was being patted down belonged to one of my neighbors. (.6 miles from my house.) I spoke calmly, moved slowly, was polite, and generally behaved as the ideal stop. I resent being treated in this manner, but am interested in the comments of the forum members.
 
Your right to keep and bear arms doesnt mean that everybody will be comfortable around you.
You found one who was and one who wasnt.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Look at the bright side...at least you did not have to make a split-second decision of fight-flight-surrender. Someday we might have to wonder which would offer a better chance of survival...and neither would look all that good.

Sorry, but I'd feel much better if we just abolished law enforcement as it stands presently along with the alphabet soup agencies...I, personally, feel there's more of a threat to my person from an armored cop with backup than from a local gangbanger. I am probably wrong should facts be examined, but that is my gut feeling.

CR
 
I tend to side with you, CR. I feel little real threat from the "criminal element". This is not to say that criminals cannot be dangerous, but at least they know they're the bad guys. There are some freedom thieves that evidently think they should restrict our freedoms and take our weapons.

I respect the many good LEO out there, but it's the relatively few bad apples that give the rest a bad name.
 
On your first stop, you didn't mention the time of day, so I get the impression it was daylight.
The second was at midnite and you performed what could be construed a furtive move. You also didn't mention the ages of the cops or your estimate of their experience on the job.
There are a lot of reasons why the treatment was different. The fact of the matter is that I am a much nicer person to strangers in broad daylight ;)

I see this potentially turning into "slam the cops" and there is no rational reason as you were not mistreated

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Spectre-
I've had it happen both ways...more than once. I never gave it much thought, so long as the cop handled the weapon safely. It most recently happened to me in SC in daylight. The officer stated, "Would you mind if I secure your weapon in the trunk for my own safety?". Fair request for a guy making $40K per year protecting my bacon.

We have to remember that cops have wives and kids to go home to, just like the rest of us. You were neither unduly delayed or unfairly treated in either stop. If one cop preferred to turn his back on an *unloaded* gun, I'd give him that much slack...gladly.
Rich
 
Sorry, Spectre. I've seen a lot of real abuse by the police. This stop as you describe it does not make the cut, in my opinion. You know me, I am not a knee jerk "support the police" person by any means. On the other hand, I am not a "bash the police" person if it is not warranted. It is not warranted in the situation you describe and I personally see nothing to resent.

I have had an LEO draw a weapon on me. I do not resent it. It was warranted by the situation. (The driver of the vehicle I was in had inadvertenly run him off the interstate) I disarmed him psychologically by shouting "Officer, are you all right?"

Police and law enforcement agencies, taken as a whole, are not my enemies. Yes, there are law enforcement policies and procedures such as dynamic entries and confiscation that I consider to be eminent threats to liberty in America. There are individual policemen that have no business wearing a badge. There are federal agencies that I consider to be out of control.

Dynamic entry is sometimes warranted. The more I investigate its use the more I think the problem is the frequency with which the tactic is used and the quality of the intelligence used to decide to use the tactic.

Examples being the recent killing of a homeowner in Kansas City. Dynamic entry at 0130, his kids screaming in terror, homeowner grabs a .22 rifle in his bedroom, does not point it at anyone, and is shot to death by a policemen. They found a grand total of three marijuana cigarette butts in the bedroom. Sweet. Anyone think dynamic entry warranted in this case? A failure of intelligence and a failure of policy and procedure regarding the use of dynamic entry.

Or take a case in Aiken, S.C. Full scale dynamic entry on a group of teenagers. H&K MP5's in the kids' ears. Flashbang grenades before entry. Full SWAT gear on all the officers. The haul? A gallon of koolaid and some PG videotapes. The intelligence provoking the dynamic entry? Teenagers with guns, drugs, and porn. The intelligence source? A fourteen year old runaway with criminal charges pending. It really took a rocket scientist to decide to go with dynamic entry with this level of intelligence. The LEO who made this decision has no business making such decisions. He is incompetent. The LEO's on the team who followed him are also incompetent if they were aware of the intelligence. And they should have been aware. In this case, no one was injured, the taxpayers of Aiken County had to fork over 2/3 of a million dollars for the incompetence of these wackos, though.
 
Good take, although it would seem that an unauthorized search was performed. This appears to me to be a violation of the 4th amendment. I have no problem, as I said, with officers wishing to protect themselves, as that is natural and normal.
 
Well, it seems to me that showing the CCL should have been enough. I can't fault an officer for exercising caution, especially at night. But in this instance I don't quite see that the officer had anything specific to be cautious about. Of course, there's a paranoic perception, fostered by anti-gun crusaders and the mainstream media, that if you have a gun, you are either a criminal or a potential criminal and should be treated like one. The officer in this case may or may not have fallen victim to this mindset. But, to me, it sounds like he came pretty close. My $0.02.
 
Spectre,

I live in Alpharetta,so I drive to,or through,Roswell quite a bit. It's obvious that the RPD puts a lot of effort into traffic enforcement,since I almost always see a police vehicle either sitting roadside with radar gun or executing a stop. Considering the time of day,I wouldn't get too upset at the way you were treated. The officer has to make certain he is safe. The deposting of weapon,ammo,and such in different spots is curious,because it's to be expected that the CCL holder is going to put it all back like it was before the stop. Also,if the officer observed you pull into the business,but not stop or act in a suspicious manner,then I would wonder why he actually stopped you.

Bill
 
I figure spectre's car and maybe spectre himself fit somekind of profile. The ACLU and NAACP this that profiling is a bad thing, but don't have a problem with it even if it mean I get stopped 3 blocks from my house all the time. Me and my car don't look like we belong in my neighborhood late at night. It shows the cops are being observant.
 
Let me preface this by saying that I am very, very, very Pro-LEO. I understand the dangers of the job, and I can empathize with some of the difficulties that LEO's can face.

That being said, I've had more than a few very negative encounters with various LEO's. Each time I have gone out of my way to try to be accommadating, non-threatening, and polite.

I'll relate one of these experiences with you now:

I was packing and getting ready to move to Jacksonville Florida. This was 2 days before the move. My SO and I got into an argument that resolved itself peacefully. 45 minutes after the argument is over, the County PD arrives, and buzzes asking to be let into the (locked) front of the building. I have a valid CCW, and was wearing my PDW at the time.

Since there is no way to tell who the person is outside from my former apartment, I wore my PDW downstairs, under my shirt, in it's kydex IWB holster. When I opened the door, one of the officers spotted my PDW (since it was printing), and they both pushed me against the wall of the foyer, disarmed me, and handcuffed me without preamble.

They THEN asked if I had a CCW, which I did, and proceeded to *search* my entire wallet. Eventually my CCW was determined to be valid, and the situation was explained, but until then I remained cuffed, and I didn't receive my firearm back until they were getting ready to leave. It helped that one officer is a Benchmade fan, and I had two Microtech's on me, but I am still not happy that it occurred.

What angers me even more is that one of the officer's asked me, after seeing I have a CCW, "Why did you come to the door with a gun?" This completely flabbergasted me, I mean, haven't they ever heard of home invasion robberies, police impersonation, and the fact that a CCW allows me to carry in any non restricted area I feel like, especially my home?!? Geez, I could tell these guys weren't reading the tactics list. I managed to restrain myself from saying "Ok officer, everytime someone asks me to open the door for them, I'll just let them in and hope I can run back upstairs into my apartment and get my gun...."

The only reason I didn't make a big deal out of this was that I was moving. It turns out that one of my former neighbors was a nut job, she proceeded to call the PD on me twice more, once as I was moving out of the apartment!

I understand the need for officer safety. I understand that they want to take precautions. I understand the danger of domestic dispute situations, especially the domestic violence ones.

That doesn't mean that I as a law abiding CCW holder surrender the rest of my rights. It doesn't mean that I'm presumed guilty as soon as they get there. I've heard of "Contempt of Cop" and it's said to see it starting to occur more and more, in every encounter, not just the out of the ordinary ones, and quite frankly it has me worried.

I just don't know what to do about it.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com
www.bladeforums.com
 
I paid very close attention the last time I went by the business I had turned around in Sunday morning. This business is well lit, very open, and on the corner of an intersection. It would appear to be one of the last places in the area anyone with half a lick of sense would attempt to burglarize...more so because the PD is 1.5 miles away. It seems to me the officer just wanted a stop. I drive a minivan, and was not driving erratically.

I tend to believe that I would only have had my DL run for open warrants if I had not had/shown my CCL.
 
Spectre: I tend to believe you were getting jerked around in the instance described. Why...I don't have a clue anymore than you, but probably the LEO concerned has a problem with citizens and their right to carry legally. Rich mentioned that he didn't have a problem with a guy making 40K who is "...protecting my bacon..." taking similar action. I do. It did not have to be handled that way and YOU (not any LEO in the world) are responsible for protecting yourself and/or your loved ones, IMHO.
 
Mike

But the the SHTF and the LEO is around, its his ass if he doesn't do what he can to protect you. Cops really don't get paid enough to put it on the line ever time they pull someone over.

Someone mentioned that the cop should have realized that if you have CCL the you would probably put the gun back together. In the time it take for you get the gun back to its original form, the cop at least back to his car, and you are less of a threat.
 
We had a thread not too long ago, where a number of our LEO members noted that younger LEO are more "company men" versus seeing themselves as public moderators and helpers.

I have my own unpleasant incident with a cop, and she pulled her gun, the cow!. But, I don't see the point to dredge it up.

Maybe you may not see it, but all of us are part of some group, either profession, race, gender, etc and someone is going to have a complaint. Then more and more folks start complaining about this group and the non-offending members of said group take offense. I see no constructive point in maintaining this thread so I'm locking it.

As always, e-mail if you wish to discuss it

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
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