Miami … Did they have a Warrant or court order.

Scott Evans

Staff Alumnus
Sorry I’m a little fuzzy on this; please relive my ignorance.

First question; What is required for Govt. agents to legally storm your house?

Second question; Did the feds have such authority with Elian?



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“This is my rifle, there many like it but this one is mine …”
 
Scott

I'm NOT an attorney, nor do I play one on TV.Last time I checked, the Government needs a warrant or probable cause to enter. There are many LEO and attorney types on this board who could answer that part of your question for you.

All day saturday and part of sunday morning the facist bastards were saying that they didn't need a warrant. They are the government and have the authority to do that. Then on sunday afternoon, SHAZZAMMMMM!!! a warrant shows up.

The only good thing about this whole deal, and there is NOTHING GOOD ABOUT IT, is that more people now see this administration for what it really is.

Proud to be a citizen of a terrorist state. Excuse me while I go puke!

Rick

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Guns cause crime like trailerparks cause tornados.
 
Apparently the Feds did ask for a warrant from the 11th Circuit court(before the kidnapping) and it was refused.

Assist AG Eric Holder said "we don't need a warrant"...Tom Delay rightly pointed out that if they didn't need a warrant, then why did they try to get one?

The spin is going bigtime...Now E. Holder is telling how he held in his arms, a weeping Janet Reno after she gave the go order. Gads, this insidious emotional manipulation is disgusting. Who gives a rat's patoot if Reno cries?

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
http://www.drudgereport.com/435.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A recent Supreme Court decision said that federal agents couldn't bash down a house door without a detailed warrant. Therefore, those involved in the raid could be liable -- personally.

Officials from Janet Reno to Immigration commissioner Doris Meissner to agent Betty Ann Mills, who removed the boy from the house, could be exposed.

In Sunday rounds, Meissner contradicted deputy attorney general Eric Holder's assertion that there was no warrant to search the house.

Meissner said her agency, in fact, had a legal warrant to remove Elian. "We had a search warrant, which we got from a federal judge around 6 o'clock that evening. It was a perfectly legal, properly carried out operation," she told CBS.

But over on Peacock:

RUSSERT: What was the legal basis for the raid on the home: court order, search warrant, what?

HOLDER: We had the INS, which controls in these matters, an administrative determination that the action that we took was appropriate.

HOUSE MAJORITY WHIP TOM DELAY: The United States government, for the first time that I know of, has raided a private home without a court order and taken the case--the custody of a child away from the courts and put it into the executive branch."[/quote]

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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
I think I just found out why I have had such a bad headache accompanied by intense ringing in my ears for the past few days. This whole raid thing has caused my BS indicator to go off at full intensity.
 
INS head Doris Meissner today stated the INS had a warrant. It was obtained at 6:00 P.M. If so, a copy should be obtainable from the court that issued the warrant.

Other questions arise though. Was it served properly? Was it endorsed for "no knock" entry? If not, were the occupants given reasonable time to answer the door before it was forcibly entered? Was a copy of the warrant given to the occupants? Was a receipt given for items seized per the warrant?
 
The Law

Article of Amendment #10

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
* delegated (given; granted)
* reserved (kept back or set aside)
* respectively (individually)

1.. Demands that any power not given to the central or federal government, within this Constitution, and any power not expressly prohibited to the State governments by this Constitution are kept back, or set aside (permanently) to the States or to the people.
2.. There is no constitutional mandate as to which powers belong to the individuals and which to the State, (except those declared within the Constitution, including this Bill of Rights) because this document does not pretend to declare the States or the people to be under its jurisdiction, except in the specified matters listed within this Constitution.
3.. NOTE: Remember, the people are granting rights (powers) to a governing body with this Constitution. The governing body does not yet exist, and so is incapable of granting rights.
4.. The first 8 Articles of Amendment attempt to preserve specific rights of the people. The last two Articles of Amendment attempt to clarify the fact that these are not rights that ever belonged to the (any) United States government, and therefore are not under that government's jurisdiction. Got It?

Article of Amendment #4

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
* right (just or legal claim or title)
* people (the mass of ordinary persons; the populace)
* be secure (free from fear, care, doubt, or anxiety; not worried, troubled, or apprehensive)
* persons (living bodies of human beings)
* houses (places of residence)
* papers (collection of letters, diaries, and other writings, especially by one person. Commercial documents that represent value and can be transferred from owner to owner; negotiable instruments considered as a group.)
* effects (movable belongings; goods)
* unreasonable (not governed by reason)
* seizures (taken into custody; capture)
* violated (desecrated or defiled)
* Warrants (judicial writs authorizing an officer to make a search, a seizure, or an arrest or to execute a judgment)
* issue (go or come out)
* probable (likely to happen or to be true)
* cause (reason, ground for legal action)
* particularly (with particular reference or emphasis)

1.. The word definitions fully explain the intent of this amendment.
2.. Note: "John Doe" warrants and "Dynamic Entry" policies of federal, State, or local police agencies violate this Article of Amendment, as do seatbelt and sobriety checkpoints.
Prepared by Joanne Campbell

I have the entire Constitution as above and will email it to anyone who wants it. ahampton@tcainternet.com

The Constitution is the supreme Law of the land in this Republic. Think it, sleep on it, dream it, eat it, drink it, study it, talk about it, believe it and support it or lose it.
 
I love this guy (Tribe).
http://www.spectator.org/special/special.htm

Thank You, Mr. Tribe

by Byron York

For days, conservatives have been listening to the statements of Bill Clinton, Janet Reno, Eric Holder, and others justifying the raid that seized Elian Gonzalez from his Miami relatives' home.

On Saturday morning, just hours after the raid, the president said "there was no alternative but to enforce the decision of the INS and a federal court that Juan Miguel Gonzalez should have custody of his son. The law has been upheld, and that was the right thing to do."

In the days that followed, Clinton, Reno, Holder, et al, repeatedly cited a federal court as the authority for their action. It's not us, they said -- it's the law.

Virtually the entire press corps accepted those statements at face value. But some conservatives read the original decision of judge K. Michael Moore of the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida -- the decision that supported Reno's refusal to consider any asylum request from Elian or his Miami relatives. They found that the ruling contained no order or suggestion that Elian be seized.

And then those conservatives read the decision from the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals which reversed the District Court decision. In that one, the Justice Department specifically asked the Eleventh Circuit judges to order Lazaro Gonzalez to give up Elian.

"The INS said it would consent to an injunction requiring the INS to bar Elian's departure from the United States if this Court also entered an order directing Lazaro Gonzalez to present Elian to the INS, as directed by the INS, for transfer of care to Elian's father," the judges wrote. "We decline to proceed in this manner."

In other words...No. It could not have been more clear: The court would not order the Miami family to give up Elian. There was no order from any court allowing the Justice Department and INS to do what they clearly wanted to do, which was seize the child.

Clinton, Reno, Holder, et al, were making it up. (But it was exceedingly generous of them to offer to obey the Court's injunction -- if the Court did what they wanted.)

So the conservatives tried to make a simple point. There was no order, they said. And nobody listened. And then they said it louder -- THERE WAS NO ORDER! And nobody listened.

But now, a liberal with actual standing in the press has made the point in a way that will be difficult -- although not impossible -- for the wise men and women of the media to ignore. "Where did the attorney general derive the legal authority to invade that Miami home in order to seize the child?" asks Harvard professor Laurence Tribe in Tuesday morning's New York Times.

"No judge or neutral magistrate had issued the type of warrant or other authority needed for the executive branch to break into the home and seize the child. The agency had no more right to do so than any parent who has been awarded custody would have a right to break and enter for such a purpose."

As for the warrant produced by INS chief Doris Meissner, Tribe writes: "It was not a warrant to seize the child. Elian was not lost, and it is a semantic sleight of hand to compare his forcible removal to the seizure of evidence, which is what a search warrant is for."

So in the end it is clear that the Clinton administration raided the house because the Clinton administration wanted to raid the house -- and not because any judge considered the evidence and ordered that such action be taken.

As for all those in the press who seemed determined to believe otherwise, the message is this: Ignore Tom DeLay if you want to. Laugh at him. Call him a Clinton-hater. But please read Laurence Tribe.

Byron York is senior writer for TAS.

Copyright © 2000 The American Spectator.


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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.

[This message has been edited by Oatka (edited April 25, 2000).]
 
Just found Tribe's article. Some are saying he should be on the Supreme Court. Others are saying that he's creating a "paper trail" so he will be favorably considered for that job.

I personally find it hard to believe he would disembowel the anti-RKBA argument with his stand on the 2nd, a MAJOR blow to the antis, for that tenuous reason. Things could (and do) go wrong along the trail to that seat.
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/oped/25trib.html

Justice Taken Too Far
By LAURENCE H. TRIBE
Some are wildly comparing the armed seizure of Elián González to the roundup of innocents by the Gestapo. Others think Attorney General Janet Reno showed admirable patience in dealing with a group of zealots using the boy as a pawn in its war with Fidel Castro.

But the partisan squabbling over these caricatured views threatens to obscure a vital question: Where did the attorney general derive the legal authority to invade that Miami home in order to seize the child?

The fact is, even on the assumption (which I share) that under applicable legal and moral principles Elián should ultimately be reunited with his father, the government's actions appear to have violated a basic principle of our society, a principle whose preservation lies at the core of ordered liberty under the rule of law.

Under the Constitution, it is axiomatic that the executive branch has no unilateral authority to enter people's homes forcibly to remove innocent individuals without taking the time to seek a warrant or other order from a judge or magistrate (absent the most extraordinary need to act). Not only the Fourth Amendment but also well-established constitutional principles of family privacy require that the disinterested judiciary test the correctness of the executive branch's claimed right to enter and seize.

Although a federal court had ordered that Elián not be removed from the country pending a determination of his asylum petition, and although a court had ruled that the Immigration and Naturalization Service could exercise custody and control of Elián for the time being, no judge or neutral magistrate had issued the type of warrant or other authority needed for the executive branch to break into the home to seize the child.

The agency had no more right to do so than any parent who has been awarded custody would have a right to break and enter for such a purpose. Indeed, the I.N.S. had not even secured a judicial order, as opposed to a judicially unreviewed administrative one, compelling the Miami relatives to turn Elián over.

The Justice Department points out that the agents who stormed the Miami home were armed not only with guns but with a search warrant. But it was not a warrant to seize the child. Elián was not lost, and it is a semantic sleight of hand to compare his forcible removal to the seizure of evidence, which is what a search warrant is for.

To be sure, our courts have allowed immigration officials to obtain areawide warrants to search workplaces for illegal aliens, and Congress has by statute empowered immigration officials to search, interrogate and arrest people without warrants in order to prevent unlawful entry into the country. But no one suspects that Elián is here illegally.

In fact, it's hard to see any significant immigration-related or other federal interest in whether Elián was reunited with his father now or after asylum is denied (if that is the outcome). And, should asylum be granted, Elián's father might still be granted custody and could then take the boy to Cuba with him if he so chose; asylum only means permission to stay in the United States and is not a requirement to stay.

Either way, Ms. Reno's decision to take the law as well as the child into her own hands seems worse than a political blunder. Even if well intended, her decision strikes at the heart of constitutional government and shakes the safeguards of liberty.

Laurence H. Tribe is a professor of constitutional law at Harvard.



[This message has been edited by Oatka (edited April 25, 2000).]
 
I don't want to beat this thing to death, but here's the actual warrant.
http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=2000/4/24/95717

Search Warrant
NewsMax.com
April 24, 2000

United States District Court
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA

SEARCH WARRANT

CASE NUMBER: [Blank]

In the Matter of the Search of

RESIDENCE OF LAZARO GONZALEZ, LOCATED AT 2319 N.W. 2ND STREET, MIAMI, MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, FLORIDA

TO: S/A Mary A Rodriguez, U.S. Immig. & Natz. Service and any Authorized Officer of the United States

Affidavit(s) having been made before me by S/A Mary A. Rodriguez who has reason to believe that on the premises known as

THE RESIDENCE OF LAZARO GONZALEZ, LOCATED AT 2319 N.W. 2ND STREET, MIAMI, MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, FLORIDA

in the SOUTHERN District of FLORIDA there is now concealed a certain person or property, namely

THE PERSON OF ELIAN GONZALEZ, DATE OF BIRTH DECEMBER 6, 1993, A NATIVE AND CITIZEN OF CUBA.

I am satisfied that the affidavit(s) and any record testimony establish probable cause to believe that the person or property so described is now concealed on the person or premises above-described and establish grounds for the issuance of this warrant.

YOU ARE HEREBY COMMANDED to search on or before 5-1-0 (not to exceed 10 days) the person or place named above for the person or property specified, serving this warrant and making the search (at any time in the day or night as I find reasonable cause has been established) and if the person or property be found there to seize same, leaving a copy of this warrant and receipt for the person or property taken, and prepare a written inventory of the person or property seized and promptly return this warrant to U.S. MAGISTRATE JUDGE DUBE as required by law.

[Signed]

U.S. MAGISTRATE JUDGE Robert L. Dube
21 Apr 00 7:20 P.M. at MIAMI, FLORIDA

-- 30 --

. . . if the person or property be found there to seize same . . .

Well, I hate to admit it, but it sure looks like they had the court's OK.






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The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 
Its really funny how this only surfaced Monday. During all the sunday talking heads show the Dept of Justice claimed "we didn't need a warrent"
 
Uh, guys, the warrant doesn't say what the probable cause is for taking the boy. It says to seize the boy, but it doesn't say why.

Read the 4th amendment where it mentions probable cause. It would be interesting to get a defense attorney's opinion on this warrant.

Rick
 
Thank you all for this information (I've been a bit busy to surf all my usual haunts for it myself). As I've said on other threads, I don't have a problem with how the raid was executed. 3 minutes, no one hurt. The LEO's doing it were professional, competent, and following orders.

If in fact, the Clinton Admin/Justice Dept went out of bounds in ordering this raid, which it's looking more and more like they did, HEADS SHOULD ROLL, at the highest levels.


[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited April 25, 2000).]
 
I'm not sure that probable cause has to be listed on the Warrant. Never has on any one that I ever got.

The Probable Cause always went into the affidavit to get the Warrant, but it was never listed on the Warrant itself.

LawDog
 
Well, if none other than Allan Derschowitz, (the law professor who argued against Clinton's impeachment) thinks that this grab was frightening and unconstitutional, then something's really amuck.

Of course, Mr. Derschowitz has served his useful purpose for his Billness, and if Mr. Derschowitz continues to say such things...
he should remember the fate of all those over the last eight years who said something about
the King.

Dick
 
Covert mission:

What about tue American citizen standing outside the house who was struck on the head with the butt of a gun?
He appeared on Fox News and MSNBC with his head wrapped in badages . Don't you suppose that hurt?
 
I'm watching Geraldo's show tonight and the Mayor of Miami made an interesting comment about the Raid on Saturday morning.
(Paraphrased)
He said that the raid took place without medical services on standby in the event that some "innocents" were injured (no raid/swat team goes anywhere without their own medics, and those medics have to concentrate on team members before being available for targets or innocents.)

I didn't catch it completely but i believe he then said that it took 30 minutes for those services to arive. Apparently there were injuries that required medical assistance.

Now, i'm not making any statement about the speed of the medical services reaction.

But, considering that the situation contained numerous non-targets, innocents, in close proximity to a armed raid. Why not have emergency services on standby?

~USP
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Evans:
Sorry I’m a little fuzzy on this; please relive my ignorance.

First question; What is required for Govt. agents to legally storm your house?

Second question; Did the feds have such authority with Elian?

[/quote]

Here is the site which has the actual search warrant, arrest warrant and all supporting docs. (These are not transcripts but the actual documents.)
http://www.herald.com/content/archive/news/rafters99/insdocs/content.htm
 
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