Mentored youth hunts and first gun

D

dustoff

New member
My son will be turning 5 in august and I think its time to start teaching him how to shoot. We stopped at Gander Mountain the other day and found two guns that fit him. A .22lr cricket and a 410 shotgun. I want to buy him both but I am having a hard time deciding which to get first. I want to take him for squirel on a mentored youth hunt when small game season starts. I was figuring I would much rather not let him shoot a .22lr in the woods yet, as the bullet can travel much further than a shotgun shell. Both of the guns are fairly cheap with the cricket costing $99 and the 410 coming in at $180. I got him a bb gun a couple months ago but the trigger is way to heavy for him to pull. Because the trigger is to heavy he never hits anything. I need to get him shooting holes in paper to build his confidence, plus my in-laws have him convinced the bb gun is just another toy for him to play with.
So my question is which of the two guns do you guys think would be best for him to start learning with. I will buy both of them before we go hunting but I am looking for advice on which one to buy now. The 410 will be what he will hunt with and will be easier to see instant results(more holes in one shot). The .22lr will help me teach him about using the sights and the basics of good shooting skills. Either way I will be teaching him gun safety, which he already practices with the bb gun.
 
He's learning sight picture with the BB gun, even with the bad trigger pull. So, since squirrel hunting is better done with the .410, I'd get that before the .22 rifle.

Art
 
I have never shot a .410 so I am not familiar with its recoil. Is the felt recoil alot. The first shotgun I ever shot was a 20 gauge and I was 7. I didn't think recoil would be a major concern with the .410, is it something I should worry about.

The little man picks up on things quick and I feel comfortable with taking him to the range to start learning. He wanted to go hunting with me this past season, so I figured since PA has the new mentored youth hunts I would take him this year. I just need to get him learning soon or he won't be ready, and I won't take a kid into the woods with a gun if he isn't ready.
 
It is considerable recoil for a tyke, several times that of the .22 lr. If the boy likes punishment, he'll love it. If he's on the sensitive side, he won't. :)
 
My first shotgun was a .410 Savage single shot with the hammer on it. Daddy took me out when I was about 11 on a squirrel hunt and I can remember to this day the location where I shot the first squirrel. I killed many squirrels with that .410 before I moved up to bigger guns.
 
My vote is to start with a .22 rifle. Emphasis on accuracy and fundamentals like trigger control and breathing. When he learns to shoot a rifle well then you can move on to shotguns. I think trigger control and breathing would be more difficult to teach with a shotgun because the pattern could hide mistakes unlike a single bullet.

I started my two oldest with a .22 at age 4. My 3rd started with a .22 at age 3. The younger ones always grow up faster wanting to be like their older siblings. My oldest killed his first deer at 6.

We have a Chipmunk in our house. It is a good trainer for aperture sights because the length of pull is short. Length of pull doesn't matter quite as much with open sights or a red dot.

The most important thing is for the kids to have safe FUN. If they don't enjoy it they won't want to do it again. Comfort of ear and eye protection was something of a problem with my oldest. The next in line had a lot of problems with discomfort until we found ear protection with the right ear piece shape. Number 3 had no problem. Each kid will be different. Shooting good groups is great but start out with BIG targets up close. 11"x17" paper with a 10" diameter circle would be good. When the little ones start getting most of the rounds in the circle move them up to a smaller circle a little farther away. Make a big deal out of it like it is a promotion. Bring some fun stuff to shoot like old plastic soda bottles or aluminum cans that will fall over or jump when you hit near them. Small sections of scrap 2x4 lumber standing on end with a target dot pasted on them will fall over when hit and the little ones like to see a reaction. Always pick up the trash. Maybe try Diebold synthetic reactive targets. They are on my birthday list for the kids this year. They look like knock-down steel plates but are made of some sort of plastic so the bullets go through instead of bouncing off like steel.

Sorry to make it so long - I got carried away.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I will only get one chance to make his first trip to the range a positive one. I have done some thinking and talked with my wife and I do believe I am going to buy both guns at the same time. I have been saving some money for a lever action 7mm-08 that I want but, I will put that off a little longer and use my gun money to get him both. I will be having him shoot the .22 first and after I try the .410 I may let him give it a go. I have never shot a .410 and so FirstFreedoms advice about recoil makes me a little cautious about handing it to my little one. Bitmap, I appretiate your long post as I have been told that kids should not shoot at such a young age. I figure the earlier I teach him about guns the safer he will be around them. Its good to see someone else started there kids young and had positive results. The only reason I am getting the .410 is because he really want to go hunting with me this year and I think his chances of success are much better with the shotgun. Hopefully I can get the guns tonight and within the next week we will have our first trip to the range.

Does anyone have experience with young kids and hunting. Any advise on how to prepare him to hunt. Shooting basics are just a small part of hunting and I need to be sure he is ready to hunt before we go. I have until October to get him ready and I need to make sure he can be successful.
 
Dust, I don't know what kind of hunting you'll be doing in October (squirrel/wabbits?). My experience with kids and hunting is limited to deer hunting, which is a lot different than squirrel huntin'. The difficulties you may have with kids and hunting include:

1. Movement. Kids have a really hard time staying still; they like to shift from one foot to the next, scratch their heads, wipe their noses, etc. So don't expect the kid to be able to stay still (especially for long periods of time), and don't be too disappointed if your game sees the Kid's movement and takes off. It happens.

2. Boredom. Some kids will get totally bored of hunting after 2 or 3 hours. Skip the all-day hunt, and just let them hunt with you for a couple of hours.

3. Cold weather. Kids don't tolerate it as well as adults. Or maybe they are just smarter than us silly adult hunters who insist on sitting out in the cold/wind/rain/snow for hours on end. A couple of hours is more than enough.

4. Safety. Most of the kids I hunt with don't carry a gun on the first time that they hunt. Instead, they watch (and hopefully learn) about gun safety and other hunting skills from the adults on their first hunt.

That's the best I can do for ya.
 
Well yesterday I did it, I went out and bought both the guns. We should get a chance to go to the range next week. I won't be letting him fire the .410 until I fire it and judge the amount of recoil. I will try to get some pictures of him shooting and post them here.
Fremmer, thanks for the reply. You have made really good points. We will be squirel hunting in October. I am going to limit his hunting to the afternoon so he won't be waking up early on the weekend. When we go fishing we leave when he declares he is finished and thats the way I will treat our hunting trips. When he has had enough we leave. If I force him to stay he won't want to go next time.
As far as movement is concerned, he likes being in the woods and we have started spending time there watching the animals. He has learned that in order to see them he has to sit still and keep quiet. It doesn't always work out that way but at least he is aware of the fact that his actions can scare the game away.
Safety is my number one concern. Mentored hunts in PA are a new thing. The way they are supposed to work is as follows. Any child under the age of 12 can participate. The youth must be acompanied by a licensed adult and only one gun can be carried. The youth does not have to complete a hunters safety course first but it is the responsibility of the adult to teach and ensure safety.
I will be carrying the gun until we get to our hunting spot. Once we are set I will keep hold of the gun. I only plan to hand him the gun after he sees a squirel. After he has taken his shot I will be taking the gun back and hopefully we will go to collect the dead game.

Any other suggestions on how to make our trip safe and enjoyable would be greatly welcomed. I have no experience taking a kid hunting so this will be a new experience for both of us.
 
I didn't catch which 410 you selected. If it's a very light weight unit I think you will find the recoil surprising high even with the shorter shells. I recommend you clean it and put it in the closet for the time being.

As far as the 22 goes, if you have a soft backstop you might consider starting him out with some Super Colibris or CB longs. Soft backstop is a must for the Supers.

I'm sure it goes w/o saying but in addition to all the "Must Does" one "Must Does" that might get overlooked in the process of finding ear plugs and eyewear that fits:

Don't let him touch the lead bullets while you are shooting...don't let him handle the fired cases or pick up fired cases from the ground....take something with you to cover the shooting bench to keep the lead off of him....wash his hands as soon as the shooting session is over....don't let him clean the rifle or handle any of the fouled cleaning supplies. IOWs...if you can figure out a way he will pick up lead expose don't let that happen.

It may seem like I'm over reacting but small kids are very sensitive to lead exposure.

S-
 
learning curve

All kids learn at different rates.
He'll be happy just to be in the woods.
You will know when it is time to proceed
just don't set a time table in your head and expect him to keep to it.
Let him carry an unloaded gun for a while to see if he understands safety rules. If you end up looking down a muzzle you know he/she is not ready.
I have seen 24 year old men that did not need to be carrying a loaded gun.
 
I didn't catch which 410 you selected
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I guess I should first say that I didn't select the .410, I left that up to him. We visited the gun shop together and he tried out a bunch of guns. The .410 he liked and fit him best was the H&R Tamer (http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Shotguns/tamer.aspx). At 6lbs it is a little heavy for him to hold up to his shoulder correctly for more than about 45 seconds. When we get to the range he will be shooting it from the bench and in the field he will using a rest. The .22 he chose is a Davey Crikett model 230. (http://www.crickett.com/CrickettRifle/crickettrifle.html)
As far as setting a time table for him, if he is not ready to hunt he will not be hunting. Instead I will allow him to sit with me while I hunt. This will allow him to go on a "hunting trip" and learn. Either way he will not be carrying a gun at any time. I will maintain %100 control of the gun at all times. The only time he will have the gun is when a shot presents itself.
Those are some great tips about the lead. I will be sure to keep him away from the lead. I also carry baby wipes in my range bag and he will be wiping his hands as he checks his targets.

As far as the 22 goes, if you have a soft backstop you might consider starting him out with some Super Colibris or CB longs.
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I am not familiar with these bullets, as I don't shoot many .22 rounds. When I do I normally buy a cheap bulk pack. Is there some specific reason you recomended these bullets?
Thanks again for all the comments.
 
As far as the 22 goes, if you have a soft backstop you might consider starting him out with some Super Colibris or CB longs.


What he's getting at is these are very quiet rounds below 1050 feet per second I think. I have seen/heard a cricket size .22 shoot subsonics and it almost sounded silenced. This would probably be less scary for his first trip. I can remimber shooting a .410 when I was younger. Im 21 now, and I was probably around 7ish then. I remember not being able to hit a coffee can at 20 yards. I would let him shoot the .22 first and after a few trips let him beg to shoot the .410 and then tell him I told you so afterwards. Its probably going to kick the snot out of him. Its hard to break bad habits developed early on. I was a pretty crappy rifle shot untill I was out of elemntry school.
 
Bingo,

Super Colibris have no powder, just primer and as such they are pretty quiet. Less report than my pellet rifle but they will still make it out there 25 or 30 feet & punch holes. I think when I chrono'd a few they ran about 500 FPS. The reason you want to use a soft backstop is the bullet can come back at the shooter if you use a hard backstop (steel, hardwood, other). They aren't super accurate but neither will he be the 1st time or two. Use big targets.

Next best thing to a Super Colibri is a CB long. They have powder and run 700 FPS of so and are louder but still not bad at all. They are more accurate than SCs but you won't win olympic gold with'em. Still, for reactive targets like clay pigeons they are a super way to build confidence and distance up to a point.

Both should be accorded full respect in terms of their ability to injure or kill.

Now having said all that my son, also 6 when he became a student of the gun, shot SCs for a while, then CB longs, then moved on to subsonics and standard velocity ammo. When you move up to subs, and in my experience CCI subs are best, you're looking at a round that is very accurate and consistantly so out to 50 yds. They are also louder but still well less than HV 22 ammo. By the time my son could shoot subs and standard velocity stuff well, he could also shoot the socks off of my 17 hummer (scoped of course) and he and I competed against each other on some darn small targets. I let him win sometimes and he did likewise. By then he was 8-9.

As far as the shotty goes I just weighed the 410 I got my son back when he was 6. It weighs 4.5 pounds. I considered the recoil too sharp for him at 6. By the time he was 7 he'd shot bricks of various 22s and he'd been in the field with us duck, deer and dove hunting more times than I can count. He finally convinced me he could handle it and I gave in after I put the best recoil pad on it I could find.

He couldn't. My mistake.

He's bagged a dove or two since then but he's still not crazy about the recoil. Last year he was going on 11 and we came up with a 243 for deer season. Fired the rifle myself several times 1st & I didn't think recoil would be an issue but I could tell it was for him.

If I had it all to do over again I think I would have nixed the sharp recoil of the 410 all together (expert round that it is) and just waited till he was ready for the push of a 20 ga. When you have a young shooter it's better to take your time and go slow. Mastering one platform at a time is the way to go. Then again all kids are different. YMMV.

They say it's the mark of wisdom when you learn from observing the mistakes of others rather than learning 1st hand by making your own.
And as Forest said "That's about all I have to say about that."

Best
S-
 
I would recommend holding of with the .410 for a while, shooting from the bench is about the worst position for felt recoil.
What i find with young one is they dislike the report more that the recoil.
When i was growing up, the only gun my dad owned was a SxS 410 Ranger. it only said .410 on it, we put anything that said .410 into it, had to close it over the knee with the 3" mag's. It kicked like a mule too.
I have the gun now for the grand children. the 2 1/2" shells are high priced but its worth it to use that old gun.
We started all the kids out between 5 and 7 years old.
When we are hunting, the gun they carry is unloaded, and the loads are in my hand. Its not often the critter presents a shot long enough, but the element of safety is much more important.
When we come across a can it becomes a target, then we pack it out.
Duck hunting with youngsters is even harder. I haven't taken my shotgun out for 3 years now, as its a full time job mentoring a young one with a gun.
 
Imho

Recalling my own age 5 experiance with the blood and gore of hunting I'd recommend waiting a couple of years. Four or five is a good time to start fishing. Eight or nine is plenty of time to start hunting, then best to hunt something like the pestiferous rats out at the barn instead of the 'cute' tree rats.

Concerning learning the skillset of shooting:
.410 box of 25 cost is about $8
.22 box of 500 cost is about $15
That's about 32 cents a shot for .410 and 3 cents a shot for .22.

Ditto on what others have said about the noise and recoil.
 
Ok, I looked up the Super Colibri online and they have a big warning not to shoot them in a rifle. Is this something I have to worry about in the little .22lr I bought? The barell is shorter than a normal rifle but still alot longer than a pistol. My son has been sick this week so our trip to the range has been put on hold until he is feeling better. When we do go I will be sure to get him some of the bullets recomended. As per all the advice given, I probably will not be letting him shoot the .410 on our first trip.

Four or five is a good time to start fishing. Eight or nine is plenty of time to start hunting, then best to hunt something like the pestiferous rats out at the barn instead of the 'cute' tree rats.
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MeekAndMild, all kids are different and I think that putting general age restrictions on them may hold them back from enjoying things. For instance you say four or five is a good time to start fishing. My son started fishing a couple months before he turned 2. He has become really good at it and it is some of the best time we spend together. Normally, at least once a week we go to the lake to catch some fish. It has become a little competition that he is easily winning. He catches twice the number of fish I do. I was amazed at how quickly he picked it up. He can even tell you what type of fish he has caught. Nothing is as exciting as watching a little kid pull in a 12 inch Bass on a 3 foot batman fishing rod. He has been bothering me lately to let him keep a fish for dinner, but he has not caught the right fish yet. When he does, I will help him clean it and cook it and then let him enjoy his catch.

Anyway back on topic, I feel that he is mature enough now to start learning how to shoot and under very close supervision he should be able to hunt. As far as the "cute tree rats" is concerned, he helps me clean, cook, and eat everything I bring home. I have explained to him how the food chain works(difficult to explain to a four year old). Since I have no intention of eating a barn rat I will not let him shoot at one. We have talked about only killing what you are going to eat. It is very imprtant to me that he understand how valuble life is and that hunting is a natural thing. Killing for fun or trophy is not.

Gbro you say you started your kids between ages 5 and 7. Did they start hunting at this time or simply shooting? If just shooting, how old where they when you first took them hunting. What types of guns dod they shoot at that age?
When we come across a can it becomes a target, then we pack it out.
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I am glad to see that you are teaching the kids that trash needs picked up no matter who left it behind. When I take my son fishing we take a trash bag and the last thing we do before we leave is pick up the garbage left by others.
Thanks again everyone for the advice and please continue to add any other tips you may have.
 
dustoff

I think Aguila may have the same warning for both Colibris & Super Colibris in regard to them lodging in a rifle barrel. The regular Colibris only make about 300- 350 FPS and most of the problems with squibs I'm aware of seem to be associated with the regular Colibri.

The Supers at 500-ish FPS have never caused issues in the CZ Scout or the Rossi youth model 22 we fire them in. I'm think the chances of one lodging in the tube of something as short as a Cricket would be slim. Not impossible but pretty unlikely. If one does get stuck they can be pushed out with a cleaning rod or wooden dowel assuming you don't stack up 1/2 dozen before you realize they are not leaving the barrel.

If you are concerned about a plugged barrel the next step up is the CB long which will not stick but is still a reduced noise round. Not reduced enough for him to forgo ear protection. I really like CB longs.

In closing: It won't be a problem with the Cricket because it's a ss but none of the three rounds discussed above will dependably feed from a stick-type magazine because they are too short. Also, because they are shorter than LR ammo you should keep and eye open for formation of a lead ring in the chamber that'll cause sticky extractions when you do step up to something with a LR round length.

Best
S-
 
As for hunting, My oldest daughter was with me while she was still in diapers,
The grandsons carry an unloaded .22 at 6-8 and at this time, if i have more than 1 along its only 1 gun. They carry loaded now (12-14) and pass the unloaded rifle or shotgun upon getting an opportunity (flush, hit, miss) I as stated haven't carried a firearm for several years now as all attention is on the young one with the firearm.

I had a 10 yo grandson with during Deer season and i only got the .54 cal flint'er when he was crossing an obstacle. He shoots this with 1/3 loads(thats what i tell him and he loves it) .54 round ball 40 gr. 2F
 
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