Men of Determination

4

45guy

New member
I have been fallowing the thread here, and on THR, about hand guns and armies, they both drifted into how determined people can make a difference. I would like to state a free flowing discussion on this topic. No holds bard.

Lets start with Warsaw ghetto and Mindanao as examples and go where it may.
 
In 1942 a badly damaged PT, all ordnance expended, propeller shafts bent, making only one or two knot and sinking, made it to a creek on Mindanao. The local fisher men, guerrillas all, towed it to small boat yard. There with only hand tools they repaired the hull and hammered the shafts straight, giving better performance than it had before. They found torpedoes that had missed and grounded on a mud bank and repaired them, using moonshine for fuel. The boat went on to attack several Japanese ships sinking same. One was a troop ship being sent to destroy the resistance, at a time when they were very week. This gave them time to disperse and and survive. All ordnance again expended it was filled with refugees and sent to Australia.
An example determination and will.
 
LJ:
I believe it is in a book called "They Were Expendable", which inspired the movie of the same name. The book was factual, a narration along the lines of Robert Scott's "God Was My Co-Pilot" about his time as a one-man AVG in China, and Ted Lawson's "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo". I expect the book is long out of print, but I think my parents had a copy which I have stored away pending enough living space.

Alvin York was determined to take care of his troops.

There are a lot through the times...
 
Why not start at the Revolutionary war, where a bunch of people formed an army and defeated the best army of the day. History is full of examples where determined people banned to gether and stood up, sometimes they win sometimes they lose but they do make a difference.
 
Yes it was in this book, also in the Guerrillas of Mindanao. Both are long out of print. I am trying to get copies.
 
The guerrillas on Mindanao were a most interesting group, worthy of a study all of there own.

As to the Revolution, any one have anything on Francis Marion? I have very little on him.
 
"Men of Determination?"

This was sent to me a week ago and I feel it needs to be shared......

How about the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence,and what happened to them when the British came knocking:

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died.

Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured.

Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the evolutionary War

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated, but they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.

Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished.

The 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence all knew they would be rounded up and hung by the British if the revolution failed.
 
Afghanis subdued the Soviets with Enfield Bolt Rifles.
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Thats an overstatement, as pointed out already. Until the Afghanis got stingers, they were slowly losing. After they got stingers, they were able to kick soviet butt.
 
Had they not been determined with those rifles, they would probably have never gotten the stingers. I'd like to see proof they had stingers. Not a movie.
 
Had they not been determined with those rifles, they would probably have never gotten the stingers. I'd like to see proof they had stingers. Not a movie.
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Are you actually questioning whether we shipped them Stingers at all? Really?

I'm not going to be your google monkey. Go find the proof yourself. I already found it, mind you, because I generally avoid being so smug unless I'm pretty darn sure I'm right. It took me all of about 17 seconds to find a plethora of sources confirming that we supplied the Afghanis with Stingers...unsurprising, considering it's common knowledge. I'm looking at articles ranging from reputable press sources to articles posted within government domains. I'm looking at pictures of Afghanis holding Stingers, and I'm not talking about still caps from Charlie Wilson's War.

I sure hope we gave them Stingers, because otherwise I'd like to know what we wasted so much money trying to buy back from them afterwards.

Seriously man, there's a fine line between healthy skepticism and...well, the other sort. Sure, just because something was in a movie doesn't mean it was true (in fact, often "based on a true story" means "very little of this actually happened"). However, just because something was in a movie doesn't mean that it isn't true, either.
 
John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished.
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John Hart is my 5th Great Grandfather through his son Edward, a Revolutionary War soldier. His farm was trashed by Hessian troops and his gristmill was destroyed. The rest of it is not true. That quote comes from another descendent of John Hart. What the guys motives were in inventing this statement I do not know.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/f...31&PIgrid=2731&PIcrid=641079&ShowCemPhotos=Y&

Richard Stockton, Signer, was captured by British loyalists and was tortured by the British. By some accounts he was forced to recant. Stockton was also from NJ. My Grand Daughter Katie and her Mom are descended from Richard Stockton.
 
Hope you like being your own google monkey.

Have you been to Afghanistan?

I have.
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That's super. Hope you had a good time there. I fail to see what relation that has as to whether the US government provided them with Stingers. Do you still question this fact?

I'm thinking this is one of the many cases in which "I'd like to see proof" actually meant "I'm too darn lazy to go look something up."
 
No, it means that I've talked to the Afghanis, and they never recieved US aid, they fought off the Soviet rapists via the Taliban, which is why it is very hard even now to get them to think badly of the Taliban. They do not have old Stingers laying around in their caves, we found Soviet RPGs and Recoiless Rifle Rounds. I believe you are fast proving yourself to be "too darn lazy" as you put it, to provide a single credible source to support your viewpoint upon the history of a country you have never even been to.
 
No, it means that I've talked to the Afghanis, and they never recieved US aid, they fought off the Soviet rapists via the Taliban, which is why it is very hard even now to get them to think badly of the Taliban.
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Um...our aid to Afghanistan was at least semi-covert, so it's not entirely unlikely that the average Joe Blow in Afghanistan might not know about it. And it's not like the Taliban had any real incentive to spread the truth on the matter either, considering America is all evil and what not (and they also had the incentive to take all the credit for their victory). And it's not like the average guy fighting for his country against the Russians was going to research the paper trail and find out where the money to buy his weaponry, or the weaponry itself, came from.

I guess it just comes down to who you're more likely to believe on the subject...dozens of reputable news organizations, going back to the early 90's, along with the Defense Technical Information Center (a distributor of the paper, not the author), Jane's, as well as a handful of other miscellaneous sources (again, going back into the 90's)...or some random Afghani villagers.

Personally, given the tendency of totalitarian regimes to use propaganda and tightly control information and official history in order to further their cause, I think you're choosing poorly.

They do not have old Stingers laying around in their caves, we found Soviet RPGs and Recoiless Rifle Rounds.
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Just because you did not find them does not mean they do not have them. And it especially does not mean they never had them.

I believe you are fast proving yourself to be "too darn lazy" as you put it, to provide a single credible source to support your viewpoint upon the history of a country you have never even been to.
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I still fail to see how whether or not I've been to Afghanistan affects whether or not we gave them weapons. Were you in Afghanistan in the 80's? Were you involved in their operations? No? Then all you have direct knowledge of is Afghanistan today, not its history or of the particulars of their conflict with the Soviets.

I don't pretend to be an expert on Iraqi history simply because I spent some time there and got to know many of the locals. Both my experience in the country is going to be limited, and further their own knowledge of their own history is going to be limited...again, due to the nature of the regime they lived under.

Heck, with all the talk around here about the selective teaching of American history in our schools, and the lackluster knowledge of our own history that the average American shows, you're really suggesting that the average person who lived under the Taliban is infallible?

I believe you are fast proving yourself to be "too darn lazy" as you put it, to provide a single credible source to support your viewpoint upon the history of a country you have never even been to.
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Why don't you go ahead and set the goalposts, then I'll decide whether or not I'll be able to meet whatever burden of "proof" you're going to require. I have a feeling nothing short of an Afghani holding a Stinger (live, not a picture, which I can provide) will convince you, so honestly I don't feel like wasting my time. Again, if dozens of reputable news sources going back a couple decades aren't enough for you, then your tinfoil hat is just too thick. I'm sorry, but I can't provide original copies of classified CIA paperwork.



Regardless, I don't even know what your point is. It doesn't matter what weapons they used, or who bought them, the fact that the Afghanis stood up to the Soviets (and won) is still pretty damn impressive.
 
They do not have old Stingers laying around in their caves, we found Soviet RPGs and Recoiless Rifle Rounds.
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Did you find Chinese rockets and other ordnance? How about British Blowpipes? These were known to have been supplied as well.

Just because you didn't find it or the individuals you talked to didn't see it, doesn't disprove the decades of information (including coming from the Mujahs and Russians during the war) stating that yes, we did provide Stingers.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CEFDD163CF937A15754C0A965958260&scp=1&sq=+U.S.+increases+fund+to+outbid+terrorists+for+Afghan+missiles
 
My original point was that Afghanis fended off the Soviets with bolt rifles. You try moving an infantry platoon when you have 500 yards of danger area around you no matter which way you go. This is what the Russians had to deal with.

Rather they had Stingers or not? I see no proof. I see lots of hearsay. Heck, maybe a covert op killed Kennedy, who knows. I bet you could find a picture of it somewhere too.

At any rate, the point of my OP was that determined citizens with bolt action rifles were able to successfully fight an insurgency against aggressors with modern weaponry.

Um...our aid to Afghanistan was at least semi-covert
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So your evidence is semi-hard?

does not mean they never had them.
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I'll give you that one, who knows, maybe they had top secret Phaser Guns too.

don't pretend to be an expert on Iraqi history simply because I spent some time there and got to know many of the locals.
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Yet you seem to know quite a bit of Afghanistan's history it would appear.

the fact that the Afghanis stood up to the Soviets (and won) is still pretty damn impressive.
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Agreed.
 
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