Medium rifle? When a light rifle isn't enough but a heavy is to much?

G

Glamdring

New member
The Scout thread got me thinking.
Is there a point to "medium rifles"? I am thinking the big small bores like the 338's or true medium bores like the 35's and 375's.

Personally Elk is where I start wanting something more than a 308, 270, or such. But lets say for things like Moose, Brown Bear, African Lions, and such what is a good set up for gun and caliber? Basically big game short of Buffalo or such.

Cooper would probably pick something like his Lion Scout or the Steyr "Dragoon" [ie 376 Steyr].

I am not wanting to argue if you need anything more than a 30-06 class for this. I think the '06 class of cartridges can kill anything that walks on land with proper bullet and proper bullet placement but I want something more. I would feel more confident.
 
This is an area I've only read about. Never hunted meese. Lots of folks, here and in the hunting mags, etc, seem to believe you don't need to go bigger than the '06 for a moose.

Really, rather than size, consider the difference between those which get hostile and bite or stomp; and those that don't. A critter which, once wounded, will hunt you down and do bad things to your body is a candidate for truly serious cartridges and bullets with mucho penetration.

I guess the next factor is your own ability to maintain control and function well when everything goes wrong. It's all well and good for Mr. IceKool to shoot a charging lion in the left nostril at ten feet with his .375 or equivalent. Joe Sixpack might do better to center the skull with a .416, out at 50 yards. Damfino.

Your question is good, but there's also the matter of the guy behind the gun...

:), Art
 
I have a lot of bang.

Basically you are looking for a class 4 rifle round. A round that will pretty much kill an elephant. You are looking for the 375H&H Magnum. I have a .338magnum and I haven't had a problem with dropping elk w/ a single round and 500yrds. The .338magnum is a class 3 round, but has done everything I've needed it to do. A 7mm and 8mm will basically do what you are asking. Some are better then others, but it will also vary in the situation you are shooting such as wind, range, temperature etc...
 
I agree with the comments about the .338, love mine and have used it for moose in Alaska. If you want to stay below a 375, the 338 would be my choice.

I do think that lion have a minimum caliber restriction of 375H&H in some African countries. If that is in the plans, may want to double check before forking out any cash.

Snake
 
I'm not up on all of these big calibers (Highest I own is .308). For my own edification can anyone tell where the .300 win mag falls in with these? Won't it do a bangup job on moose even though it is a wussy .30 caliber? That is the immpression I was under.
 
How about the .35 Whelan?

Lots of power at a fairly mild recoil level.

Or the Middle power .44 and .45 centerfires?
 
I will vote for my Renington 700 classic in 375HH Mag if I had to cover all of the game listed.With it you have bullet weight, enough diameter,it still has a fair amount of speed and flat shooting enough for almost anyone.
 
Well, discounting African lions, I would think that a .338 Mag. or .35 Whelan would be more than adequate. I personally think they would do for lions too, if you discount the laws in some African countries specifying .375 as the minimum bore. Remember, Stewart Edward White would take on whole prides of lions with a 30-06 and 220 gr. bullets. A guy named Sheldon killed just about every species of North American big game, including Kodiak Bears with a 6.5 Mannlicher-Schoennaur. That one is basically in the 30-30 class, except that the 160 gr. bullet he used penetrated way beyond it's supposed power.
I'll probably never hunt the big bears, no real desire too anyway, and more than likely I'll never hunt moose as well. I've carried .35 Whelans, .338 Win. Mags and even a couple of .375s after elk, but would feel just as well armed with my .308 loaded with the proper bullets, or even with a
7X57 MM, again with the proper bullets.
I would say that if no big bears or lions are on the menu, a .35 Whelan would be fine. From some of the reading I've done, it seems most Alaskan guides insist on the .338 Mag. as minimum for Kodiak bears anyway.
I guess the best answer is, what is the most powerful rifle you can honestly handle, without flinching? My key word is "honestly". Are you willing to put in the time and practice to be able to handle that rifle? .338's and .375's kick. Even more so from the bench. I shoot .35 Whelans, .338 Mags, and .375 H&H and a wildcat .375 Mag. on a fairly regular basis from the bench, and I'll admit it. I still flinch on occasion. And I've been shooting them for years. But, I have learned to control that flinch. (Most of the time anyway. I still have one get away from me now and then.) But! The more you shoot it, being determined to master it, the easier it gets.
Paul B.
 
Does it matter what your range to target is? Art mentions 10 feet vs 50 yards...does anyone remember at what ranges Bell usually brained Elephant at with his 7x57?


IIRC bull vs bear fights used to be a big thing, with the bear chained it was near parity. In light of that, does it seem strange to anyone else that solids are almost always suggested for use on buffalo [at least in the mag to follow up a soft in the chamber] but never even considered for "Meese" or Brown Bear? I know it was a different type of buffallo. But weren't those bears smaller than the big brownies?
 
If I were looking for only one rifle/caliber for all hunting needs (with the exception of the African Big 5) I would go with a Winchester in .375H&H. While it is too much for Deer size game, it will do well for Elk/Moose size, and I would definately want it for Grizz (and other dangerous large game)
 
"Karamojo" Bell hunted elephants in an era when there were a lot more elephants than there are now; and when elephants had much less fear of man than they do now. I have read that he commonly shot from within ten feet; often with the muzzle nearly touching the elephant. Shoot the heart and run, I assume.

Just as I've commented in threads about hunting deer with centerfire .22s, I definitely believe that relatively small cartridges CAN kill large animals: When all goes well and the shot is perfectly placed. When all goes to hell and the shot is not well placed and the target will happily change your status to "The Late Lamented", I suggest that you'd be better off to use the maximum gun you can handle.

Ruark and Capstick have written extensively on this. Capstick commented that an old joke in Africa goes, "What's the black stuff between an elephant's toes? Slow natives." He also comments that if a "Cape" buffalo ruins you, you will weigh more at your funeral than you did in life, because of the mud mixed with your remains.

Review the threads, here, about brown bears in Alaska. You don't have to be hunting the stupid things to find yourself in the middle of a big furball. I've read too many stories of folks being well-chewed by a brownie who's been hit more than once by a "medium" rifle. IIRC, mention was made of a bear which kept chewing after two hits from a .338.

"All goes well" and "All goes to Hell" seem to be separated by a couple or three thousand pounds of muzzle energy.

Art
 
mighty whelen

Some interesting reading is to be found on Sixgunner. Check Paco's story on the 35 Whelen and 35 Whelen Improved. One load he had was an absolute piledriver. Something like 280 grains of lyman hardcast gas-checked flat pointed death traveling at 2600 fps. Bark!
 
From what I've read about the .35 Whelen, the efficiency of the .30-'06 case nears its full potential. "It shoots bigger than the amount of powder would have you believe."

:), Art
 
I like the 375HH Mag a lot.But the 35's are good also.The 35Whelen and the 350Remington Mag deserve more use and credit than they recieve.On paper the balistics don't look all that great for the 35's and that is probably why they are not more popular than they are.But I can tell you from personal expeirence that they are very good killers on the game I have shot with them.
 
So is there any real point to modern medium rifles?

I don't believe in one rifle for everything, but on the other hand I don't care to have a different rifle for every type of hunting and/or game.

For typical big game hunting like white tail/mule deer size I would normaly pick something like a 257 Ackley or a 6.5x55. I don't see a 308, 30-06, 270, or 7 mag as offering any improvement over a 257 or 6.5 for normal deer hunting.

Now if I am hunting a bear, african lion, or moose I want at least a 338 mag or a 9.3x64. I have thought about using a 416 for bear but for anything else short of buffalo I can't see the point [other than you want to hunt with that rifle/cartridge for the fun of it] of using a true heavy.

I am wondering how many peoeple would be content with a light rifle when hunting moose, bear [the big ones], and African Lion.
 
I have an excellent reason for liking my .375 H&H. It's the most rifle I can fire accurately.

I've tried 458's, 416's, and one shot from a 470 NE, and simply got creamed firing them. After the first shot, I'm flinching. With my 375, I can shoot five or ten rounds before the flinches start, and that's plenty.

If I don't think my 7x57 will fit the bill, I go for my .375 and never look back. I know that as long as I do my part, it'll do the job. While a true bigbore may be comforting against dangerous game, I don't feel like I could shoot well enough with one to get the job done.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
 
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