Mauser 98 sights / ammunition impact

J

Johan762

New member
Hello everybody:

I owned this 1939 Kar 98 rifle that I really really love and adore (seriously!). I am very sad, however, that whenever I go to the range to shoot this piece of history, I can't seem to hit what I am aiming at.

Example:
100 yards distance, 7.5" diameter black target on 24" x 24" white paper, six o'clock aim (at the bottom of the black target) using '78 brass cased Yugo ammo (I think).
Result: 3" group about 12" high from point of aim.

Everything is the same as above, but using steel cased ammos (origin unknown):
the middle of the "group" was about 3" above the point of aim, slightly to the right. The problem, is, this so called group covered an area about 8" in diameter.

What is funny is that I don't have problems shooting beer cans off-hand from 30' or so with it.

I got various results with various other 8mm ammos comming from Lord knows what countries, but none of them are satisfactory. They either shoot too high, too low, poor grouping, etc, etc, etc. What's up with that?

I should iterate here that my bore is in a superb excellent condition. No pitting at all actually (I think this barrel was never been issued, IMHO).

Can anybody tell me what's going on here? I really don't want to get rid of this rifle due to its VG condition and it is still in its original military configuration (not sporterized)with the swastika and all. By the way, I dont flinch from recoil. I did not have as much trouble as this from my Lee-Enfield, FAL and M1A.

I'd appreciate any help and apologize for the long winding post. I have a big mouth :(

Johannes
 
Have you ever used "real", new, store-bought ammo?

If you get the same sort of results, I'd have a gunsmith check the crown of the muzzle.

If the crown is okay, and US factory ammo gives giant groups, I don't know what to tell you, other than there might be some eyesight problem for you, when you aim coarse sights at the (we all hope) identical place on the target--and obviously I'm reaching like mad for some reason...

Damfino, Art
 
Thank's Art Eatman. Speaking of coarse sights, yes I do find those open sights on the Mauser to be less than ideal. How did the troops from different countries issued Mauser 98 shoot targets farther than 300 yards away with those open sights?

Anyway, when I buy 8mm ammos from Egypt, Yugoslavia, Turkey, or whatever, arent the projectiles from these ammos suppose to hit approximatelt at the same place (at least trajectory wise)? I mean they should not hit different places by a foot or more, right? I am aware that some there will be differences in bullet impact for ammos made in different countries (not counting powder decomposition/chemical disintegration due to age and improper storage), but they should not be as bad as I just described, correct?
Otherwise, How did the countries who imported Mauser 98 rifles such as Turkey and Poland trained their troops with marksmanship if the bullet hit really high or low?

Thank's again.
Johannes
 
Johan, I think your experiancing the concept of the military zero. Your sights with the Yugo ammo seem about on for combat.

For sporting purposes a foot high at 100 yards is excessive, but if your point of aim is your enemy's belt buckle, your probably good to 300 yards or so.

Only alterative is to adjust your sights with a file. I think that fresh factory 8mm ammo will hit higher. (lower muzzle velocity)You could file down your rear sight to lower your POI, but I personally would hate to take a file to a pristine K98.

Hopefuly some of the others here will have a solution.

Giz
 
What is the rear leaf sight set at?

As far as commercial 8mm ammo goes, it is almost a buck per shot here!

Personally, I'd pick ammo that's correct for windage and use the rear leaf sight to adjust for elevation.

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Oleg

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
I have lots of 98 Mausers and the only one that shoots like yours is a really beat up 7 X 57 Brazilian contract model with barely any grooves.

All the others will do 2-3" groups with a little Kentucky windage on my part.

Mauser sights aren't designed for 1" groups.
I found that out when I began shoot Enfied no,4 Mk2 rifles which have really fine peepsights.

I'd start with good, modern, consistent ammo. Sellier and Bellot about $10. for 20(Czech made) is good and not expensive.

I always start at 25 yards, just to see what's really happening, than go to 50 yards.
this should give you a good idea what the rifle can do by minimizing your hold errors.

Of course this only works if the rifle doesn't any other problems, like muzzle crown.
Good Luck!
 
All my comments are guesswork, of course.

It seems to me that from your description of the ammo you've been shooting, you don't have any idea of the overall uniformity of its production process, which would affect the potential group size. You don't have any idea of its age or its storage conditions before shipment or sale. All these can affect the uniformity of chamber pressures and thus both velocity and barrel vibrations.

It is common for different ammo from different manumfacturers to shoot to slightly different points of impact, and the variations you cite are not dramatically out of line.

Again, it's all guesswork. I'm assuming you are doing your shooting with sandbags, taking your own "vibrations" out of the equation as much as possible.

I've used Czech-made GI type ammo in my '06, and gotten groups inside 1", so I'd agree with Tabing's recommendation.

Get a box, get on the sandbags, and try at 25 yards. Work at a consistent aiming picture.

Good luck, Art
 
The high zero is absolutely correct for the Mauser and most military rifles of the era. Thats just the way they were designed under the theory that you'd rarely engage anyone at less than several hundred yards - they just figured that if anyone got in close you'd just aim at the middle of the body and still hit them. Its annoying as hell isn't it?
The 3" group is within the specs for the rifle but Mausers can usually do much better. You'll just have to experiment with different loads. There are scope mounts available that you can fasten to the rifle without drilling holes or ruining the original condition of the rifle. I think B-Square makes one for Mausers.

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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
I just want to say THANK YOU for everybody that's been helping me with this matter. You are all wonderful.

I will follow the advise given: buy S&B ammo, sandback, and a good go back to the range and try again, starting from closer range to the longer ranges.
 
Your rifle has battle Field zero. Since combat arms are sighted for center of mass zero at battle field range to get more consistent hits over all ranges. It was the way they thought in the old days! They knew that the soldier would never adjust their rifle sights in combat. And few ever fired them.
 
Two comments.

1. The "battle sight" range was chosen to create the greatest amount of danger space. The idea was to create a zone in which a standing enemy anywhere in a 100-600 yard (meter) range would be hit somewhere in the torso. If an enemy at 100 yards was fired at and missed, the bullet could continue on and could strike an enemy soldier for another 500 yards. Soldiers were taught to aim low ("shoot at their b**ls") at 100 yards or less.

2. Also, consider the sight picture on the Mauser. The point of the front sight should be even with the top of the rear sight. Many shooters tend to raise the front sight to make it more easily visible, but that leads to shooting even higher than the battle sights.

Jim
 
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