Match accurate rifle dies.

C

Chainsaw.

New member
So its time for me to make my first foray into the world of long range rifle shooting. I'll be buying a 6.5 creedmore soon and of course reloading for it. Accuracy will be the name of the game and I want to start gearing up for it. For the moment I'm curious about rifle dies and if some are better than others for accuracy. Obviously things will be concentricy/run out. I also plan to purchase a neck reamer.
So, tell me your thoughts on rifle dies in the name of repeatability. :cool:
 
I can consistently obtain zero to 0.001" concentricity with my standard RCBS full length sizing dies.

I measure the concentricity at the bullet ogive and the case neck.

Most times I use an RCBS Jr press that I purchased in 1967.

I use a Rock Chucker for my large calibers.....375 up to and including 460.
 
For my 6.5 CM I purchased Redding's Deluxe Premium die set. Their National Match is the best. A lot more money. For neck turning and reaming, I use Brownells 4000 neck turning kit plus a Foster reamer which works with my Hornady trimmer. If I was doing it all over again, I stick the die set but would've purchase the 21st Century trimmer lathe. I think they have a reamer that works with it.
 
for the last couple of months I have been full sizing my match loads with RCBS X dies then just before putting the powder in resizing again with the Lee neck die with the decapping pin cut off.

Since I did not have a micrometer seating die for .223 I have experimented using a basic Lee seating die. I made up "dummy" rounds with no powder and primer and the bullets epoxied in with various base to ogive lengths to set the bullets. Runout is just as good as good as I get with my $100 + Forster and Redding precision seating dies and is actually faster to set up.
 
You can load match grade ammo with a Lee Classic Loader. The dies don't make any difference.
Loading match grade ammo is about using meticulous techniques. One of which is weighing every powder charge, but its mostly about doing everything exactly the same every time. You should start with all the cases exactly the same length too.
 
While the die is some and some, the seater is not.

I like the RCBS Match seatr, very easy to insert the bullet from the side and it keeps it straight.

I have a Forster as well, just wanted to try it. I don't know if its better or not, its less friendly with having to put the bullet on the bottom.

Now I am just buy the RCBS match die set and that works for me.

I am not ever going to be a 1/2 shooter, not sure if the next step is me better, checking run-out , neck trimming and that end.

I can shoot 1/2 and under with the setup I have and that's good enough for me.

Not that I am not happy to shoot a .250, I may extend into the other areas, but for now, the die setup works. I don't know that better dies than that gives better results, I tend to think not.

I got the Forster die as a set (30-0-6 where I thought it might) first thing I did was break the entire stem. A couple of neutered military rounds with remands of the crimp snuck in (only time of course)

Forsters floating stem would not handled that and they had been trimmed down to almost nothing.

RCBS handled it all with aplomb. Maybe it is better.

What I do though is the expander ball gets removed and I use a Lyman M to do that works. Its a lot smother and no jerk.

To me that seems to be a plus.
 
Forster has no floating stem dies I am aware of. I think maybe you mean the decapping stem. The Redding Competition Seater has a floating stem (moves freely in the horizontal plane over a short distance.


Chainsaw,

The Redding Competition Seater Die just mentioned is the only one I've seen that can actually reduce overall concentricity below the runout of the neck wall. I highly recommend it. When you get it, disassemble it completely and soak all the lubricant off in mineral spirits. Then put them into fresh mineral spirits with 10% ATF added to leave a thin lubricating film after it dries off, then reassemble. A 72-hour soak in Sprinco Plate+ with excess wiped off afterward is even better.

A neck reamer will not produce concentricity unless you have a way to lock it into a concentric relationship with the outside of the neck. Otherwise, they tend to just self-center and cut away brass evenly from the inside, leaving the neck wall uneven. Inside neck reamers are for removing internal donuts at the neck and shoulder junctions or for removing excess brass after necking a case down from a larger caliber. If you want the neck wall uniformly thick, you need an outside neck turning tool.
 
Ah, an outside neck turner. Thanks you Unclenick.

So it sounds like I should just get a quality set and Ill be.....set. Groovie.
I have a great hornady electronic powder chucker that throws really well so Im off to a good start.
 
I have the standard FL set of RCBS dies for 6.5 Creedmoor. Rounds shoot better than I can milk them for at 100 yards. So far nothing over 1MOA. Most are 1/2 inch or better for 5 to 10 shots. Using a bench rest, or bipod with a sand sock.

That said I am still planning on a Lee Deluxe set for the Collet die, as well as the seating die. With my .223 Rem bolt action Savage went from 3/4 inch average groups to one hole groups. Also it saves a heck of a lot of work. No lube, no cleaning already clean cases. Time saved, and accuracy improvements that I could notice. Once I get the Lee dies I will likely sell the RCBS set as the Lee set comes with a FL sizing die as well. I just ignore the crimp die for bottle necked rounds as I do not crimp any of them.
 
Forster has no floating stem dies I am aware of. I think maybe you mean the decapping stem. The Redding Competition Seater has a floating stem (moves freely in the horizontal plane over a short distance.
Click to expand...

Brain zark, decapping stem.
 
yesterday after posting on this thread I loaded 50 rounds of .260 for breaking in a new barrel. The first 25 I just resized with the full length RCBS X die, the next 25 I used the X Die than the Lee collet with the decapping pin cut off. Bullets were seated with a Forster micrometer adjust seating die. After loading the concentricity was checked using a Hornady lathe equipped with a .0005 dial indicator. Average runout for the full length die only averaged .0015 runout with a couple of outliers in the .003 - .004 range. When the Lee collet was used afterward was .00075 average with outliers in the .002 range. The Lees work for me at least, try it yourself . With the Lee I actually size the neck twice with the case being rotated 90 degrees before the second stroke.

Warning - Don't expect to win any speed records using my loading techniques
 
Match accuracy: Is there anyone that can measure the difference in dimensions between the chamber and die, I hear stories from the claims department about using one reamer for the chamber and another reamer for the sizing die, "Times they are a-changing" Before the Internet there was no claims department.

Me? I am the one that does not want a lot of room between the chamber and case, some pack them with grease, not me, all I want is a little air between the case and chamber, I do not want a lot of air because a lot of air has an effect on time.

F. Guffey
 
As others have mentioned the RCBS Standard full length sizing die with the Redding Competition Seating die is a hard combination to beat . I don't neck turn my brass , l also use the expander ball . Also use the Redding precision shell holder set of 5 , Headspace & run-out .001. Would I get better results with a Match sizing die , maybe but adding me into the mix may stop that one hole 5 shot group.
Hope I helped , The 6.5 CM Very Nice Choice.

Chris
 
I had slim choices in dies when I built my 6XC......I went with Forster.....they turned out to be the nicest dies that I've ever owned. Much more refined than my RCBS or Lee dies. But I must admit, I'm not sure how much better they work compared to standard dies. There are many different brands on my shelf and they all load quality ammunition......I'm not sure if the 6XC is an exceedingly easy cartridge to load accurately or if all the quality components I put together were responsible for how accurate that rifle turned out to be.....One thing is sure though, the Forster dies did their job so I would expect them to work just as well for you too.
 
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In that article I liked the fact he measured the bullets for consistency.

Getting low runout is not difficult if you cull the bad things you do from your technique and pay attention to detail. I load 221 Fireball, 223 Rem (two), 25-06 and 7mm Rem Mag bottle neck rifle cases and in many instances runout is barely measurable. I'm disappointed if runout gets to .002" but runout is only one variable when loading for accuracy.

I do sort brass by weight.

I do weigh individual charges.

I have OCW loads for all calibers/guns. The OCW method works.

I keep headspace to a minimum, just enough for easy action closure.

Playing with seating depth causes me the most angst. I usually end up near the published COL for the bullet/cartridge.

As to dies, I use Forster, Lee, Redding, CH, Hollywood, RCBS and Lyman and took the time to learn how to use them to produce the best ammo I can make for each gun I have.

I keep notes for each cartridge and will generally make a dummy round when I hit on a seating depth that works best.
 
Flashole, sounds like alot of the stuff I intend to do. Whats OCW though. Perhaps I need coffee...

Got a set of hornady dies coming that a buddy is gettimg fantasic results from, at $32 on sale Ill have a hard time disputing them unless they just really run afoul.
 
Google Optimum Charge Weight (OCW). Years ago Uncle Nick steered me to this and I decided to try it. It works really well but IMO you need a minimum of 200 yards to get meaningful results.

You absolutely must have the same shooting setup during the exercise. I mean you really have to pay attention to detail, same rifle position in the shooting rest, same shoulder nest, same trigger pull etc. The holes in the target will tell the story.

I generally find two nodes, one at low powder charge and one at near max powder charge. I go with the near max charge to extend point blank range on my hunting rigs. It works if you do your part. I see lots of posts from people asking for interpretation of their OCW target at 100 yards. I don't bother to respond. Target is too close and they never describe how they conducted the test or their shooting ability.
 
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