Phishermanjohn
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There was an armed, retired LEO in the church:
Interesting. WE often have discussions about intervention in a public situation with a threat. This is what someone from a LE background did.
Discuss.
Armed retired police officer saw shooting at Maryville church
'Mad scene' kept him from firing
BY BRIAN BRUEGGEMANN
News-Democrat
A retired Edwardsville Police lieutenant was in the congregation at First Baptist Church in Maryville and was armed when a gunman killed the church's pastor, but circumstances prevented him from shooting.
Retired Lt. Rich Dustman said he had neither a safe shot nor an opportunity to fire during the ordeal, in which the Rev. Fred Winters was fatally shot. Terry Joe Sedlacek, 27, of Troy, has been charged in the murder.
"There was kind of a mad scene," Dustman said. "I felt it wasn't appropriate."
According to police investigators and witnesses, Sedlacek walked to the pulpit, pulled a gun and opened fire on Winters, who was delivering his sermon.
The gunman's first shot hit the Bible held by Winters, causing what witnesses have described as a spray of confetti from the shredded text. Some witnesses thought they were seeing a skit or dramatic presentation.
The gunman fired three more shots at Winters; two missed, but one struck him in the heart. The gunman's .45-caliber Glock then jammed, and two church members tackled him. Dustman then helped subdue the gunman.
Dustman said he didn't want to discuss the March 8 episode further, out of respect for Winters' family and because of the pending criminal case against Sedlacek.
Edwardsville Police Sgt. Dennis Gunderson, who has spoken with Dustman about the shooting, said it's common for turmoil to erupt in such a scenario, and that there was nothing Dustman could have done to prevent the tragedy.
"That's basically what happened. As he was trying to get into a position to try to help, all of these people were suddenly in the way, and he could not shoot," Gunderson said.
"As (Dustman) was getting ready to, they took (Sedlacek) down and started fighting with him," Gunderson said. "He just couldn't take a safe shot."
Illinois State Police Capt. Mark Bramlett, whose agency is handling the investigation, said his review of the shooting shows there was really nothing anyone in the church could have done to prevent it or change its outcome.
"The incident happened so fast, and it was very chaotic," Bramlett said. "It would have been difficult for anybody to respond."
Investigators say Sedlacek had three clips for the gun, each holding 10 rounds. In his bedroom, police found a planner that had the day marked as "death day."
Madison County Assistant Public Defender Ron Slemer has said Sedlacek's mental health deteriorated after he contracted Lyme disease from a tick bite years ago. Church members and police have said he had no known connection to the church or to Winters.
Gunderson said if the gunman had continued firing, "I'm sure this officer could have taken care of it."
A federal law allows retired law enforcement officers to carry concealed guns.
"We're trained on when not to shoot, let alone when to shoot," Gunderson said. He added that if an untrained civilian had begun firing, "you don't know where those rounds might have gone."
About 150 congregants were in the First Baptist Church building at the time of the shooting.
Gunderson said some active and retired police officers carry their guns to church; some don't.
"That gets to be kind of a personal question with each officer. I know a lot of officers are looking at that themselves," he said. "I know a lot of officers are telling me, 'I'm going to start carrying to church.'"
Madison County Sheriff Robert Hertz said his deputies use their discretion on whether to carry a gun while off-duty, including at church services.
Hertz said he sometimes carries his gun at church, or at least has one in his vehicle.
"The events of a few weeks ago reminded me that, I guess you never know where this sort of thing is going to happen," he said. "So I've been a little more aggressive on arming myself off-duty, and church being one of the places."
Gunderson met recently with Edwardsville- and Glen Carbon-area church leaders, who asked him for advice on preparing for an emergency. One of his suggestions is for church leaders to identify congregation members who are active or retired police officers, firefighters, military personnel or emergency workers.
Those types of people, Gunderson said, could "just be aware of what's going on, and if something happens, they could also be the ones who take charge."
He likened it to a sheep dog guarding the flock.
"They're there. You don't always notice them, but when something happens, they come to the forefront and help protect the sheep from the wolf," he said.
Contact reporter Brian Brueggemann at bbrueggemann@bnd.com or 692-9481.
© 2007 Belleville News-Democrat and wire service sources. All Rights Reserved. http://www.belleville.com
Interesting. WE often have discussions about intervention in a public situation with a threat. This is what someone from a LE background did.
Discuss.