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marlin guide gun in 450?
- Thread starter NINE
- Start date
You have infinitely more factory ammo options in .45/70 (all the major ammo manufacturers and some speciality ones) than in the new .450 (one load from Hornady). Available .45/70 ammo runs all the way from "Trapdoor-safe" stuff to hot loads from Garrett, Buff. Bore and Cor-Bon that will do anything a .450 will do. Even in .444 you have more choices than in .450, and I personally don't think that anything you gain in energy or trajectory is worth losing the load flexibility, esp. for the .45/70.
Try this link for an article:
http://www.gunsmagazine.com/Pages/0601spcl.html
A TFL search will likely turn up more discussion and some ballistics data.
Try this link for an article:
http://www.gunsmagazine.com/Pages/0601spcl.html
A TFL search will likely turn up more discussion and some ballistics data.
PMC is now loading a .45-70 round that virtually duplicates the performance of the .450 Marlin. It's reasonably priced, but maybe a bit hard to find.
IMO, that blows away the last reason for buying a .450.
Not so very long ago, you couldn't get reasonably priced full-power .45-70 ammo. Most of the factory ammo was underloaded to keep people from blowing up antique guns. Reloaders have always been able to get .450 performance (or more) out of the .45-70, but until PMC started selling their new loading it wasn't so for the rest of us. Unless, of course, we were willing to shell out a couple of bucks a round for specialty ammo.
And, when you DON'T want all that performance, there is a lot of cheap, lightly loaded .45-70 ammo in a wide variety of velocities and bullet styles/weights to choose from.
IMO, that blows away the last reason for buying a .450.
Not so very long ago, you couldn't get reasonably priced full-power .45-70 ammo. Most of the factory ammo was underloaded to keep people from blowing up antique guns. Reloaders have always been able to get .450 performance (or more) out of the .45-70, but until PMC started selling their new loading it wasn't so for the rest of us. Unless, of course, we were willing to shell out a couple of bucks a round for specialty ammo.
And, when you DON'T want all that performance, there is a lot of cheap, lightly loaded .45-70 ammo in a wide variety of velocities and bullet styles/weights to choose from.
Robert the41MagFan
New member
The 450 offers 45-70 level three performance at half the cost. Marlin 450 Ammunition is running at about $25 a box and is now available at most any dealer that sell the guns. It is a modern cartridge that is stronger and more accurate than the older 45-70 cartridge. Got both guide guns and I'm really taking a liking to this 450M cartridge.
Robert
Robert
True that .45/70 can be loaded hotter than factory .450 loads, but I am waiting to see what .450 can be loaded to. Probably one hell of a round. I ended up owning all three of teh guide guns, .444, ,45/70, .450. Brain fever. The .45/70 is the best all around, but the .450 has the potential to be a real bruiser.
No doubt the 450 Marlin is an impressive load, and it'll certainly do anything the .45/70 can. But, I don't know how much further its performance can be pushed, at least in lever guns. Hodgdon's maximum loads for this cartridge list pressures around 42,000 (up to 42,500) psi for 250, 300, 350 and 400 gr bullets. Max safe pressure for Marlin rifles is rumored to be in the 43,000+ psi range, probably up to 45,000. For the maximum 350 gr 450 Marlin loads, velocity from the Hodgdon tables ranges from 2119 - 2196 fps, depending on powder. Advertised velocity from the Hornady factory 350 gr is 2100 fps. So, it seems as though the factory stuff is already pushing the performance envelope. In contrast, Randy Garrett's hot .45/70 ammo is in the 35,000 psi range. In a stronger action, the 450 might really have some potential, though.
Agreed that the hot 45/70 stuff is way overpriced relative to the 450. But for the non-handloader, I think the 45/70 still has the edge for versatility and ammo availabiltiy.
Agreed that the hot 45/70 stuff is way overpriced relative to the 450. But for the non-handloader, I think the 45/70 still has the edge for versatility and ammo availabiltiy.
The 450 offers 45-70 level three performance at half the cost. Marlin 450 Ammunition is running at about $25 a box and is now available at most any dealer that sell the guns.
As I mentioned in my previous post, PMC is now loading a .45-70 round that duplicates the .450 Marlin performance.
I did mention that the cost was reasonable--I didn't mention that it I've seen it for UNDER $25 a box.
but I am waiting to see what .450 can be loaded to.
Treeprof is right on track-- the pressure limitations on the .450 are a function of the guns that are chambered for the round. So, since it runs at the pressure limits of those guns it's already being loaded as hot as it safely can.
Also, the .45-70 actually has greater case capacity so, all things being equal, it should be able to duplicate or exceed the .450 Marlin's performance and do it at lower pressures.
Thinking like the quote above is going to cause grief.
The days when a new factory cartridge is introduced and handloaders can immediately improve the performance of the round (other than accuracy) ARE GONE.
In the past, reloaders have been able to duplicate or exceed factory ammo specs because the ammo is underloaded to allow functioning in old/antique guns or because new advances in bullets & powders had obsoleted the performance of the original factory rounds which created the industry standards.
Modern factory ammo on recently introduced cartridges is loaded to maximum safe pressures and performance. This, IMO is one of the big reasons that some reloaders are having catastrophes with cartridges such as the .40 S&W.
If you manage to exceed the velocities of the .450 factory ammo, you are almost certainly creating an unsafe condition. Same with the .40 S&W and others.
Robert the41MagFan
New member
Keep on hearing about PMC ammunitions, but not even the company has shown ballistics data. Or at least it is not at their web site. I'm sure it is great stuff, as are all PMC ammunitions. But again, even at its low cost, we're still talking specialty ammunition.
Level three 45-70 ammunitions cannot exceed 42000 CUP for a Marlin lever gun and at that level both the 45-70 and 450 perform the same. You can't squeeze anything.
Robert
Level three 45-70 ammunitions cannot exceed 42000 CUP for a Marlin lever gun and at that level both the 45-70 and 450 perform the same. You can't squeeze anything.
Robert
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Gentlemen,
I am a huge fan of the .45-70. I know what it can do. I also think the .450 Marlin is a great round. I know that there is a custom shop rifle from Winchester or Remington available in it. I think it is a Winchester Model 70. That would be a sweet gun for big stuff.
My .45-70 is the Marlin Guide Gun, and I handload the 350 gr. Hornady's at higher velocity than the .450 Marlin factory loads, and the performance on game is devastating...
I am a huge fan of the .45-70. I know what it can do. I also think the .450 Marlin is a great round. I know that there is a custom shop rifle from Winchester or Remington available in it. I think it is a Winchester Model 70. That would be a sweet gun for big stuff.
My .45-70 is the Marlin Guide Gun, and I handload the 350 gr. Hornady's at higher velocity than the .450 Marlin factory loads, and the performance on game is devastating...
Keep on hearing about PMC ammunitions, but not even the company has shown ballistics data.
I've seen a post on another forum from a shooter who says it chronoed at over 2050 from one of his guns.