Marlin .450

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Noban

New member
Any TFLers have an opportunity to try one of the new carbines yet? By all accounts it looks like a solid package.

Update: Just went to my local gun shop at lunch and handled one. The receiver looks exactly like the Model 336, but the barrel diameter is impressive, especially with the ports. If I hear some favorable reports, I may have to write a check. BTW,they are asking $519 - is that reasonable?

[This message has been edited by Noban (edited June 02, 2000).]
 
When it first came out, I was wondering why they would try to challenge the revered .45-70 especially after the .444 Marlin was a flop of sorts. But after seeing the ballistics of the .450 in the latest Shooting Times, it has a lot going for it.
 
The only reason Marlin and Hornady teamed up to make the 450 was to escape liability problems associated with 45-70. There are 4 classes of 45-70 loads. The 450 is equal to a class three 45-70 load, about 40,000 PSI. Due to the fact that there are simply more 45-70's in the market, there is more ammunition availability at a much lower cost and a power band to cover all types of shooting & hunting. Smart money will continue to purchase 45-70.

Robert

Robert
 
Handed a guy $3 at the range today and he let me fire the 5th shot since the factory out of his brand new .450! Feels about like a magnum turkey load through my 12 guage! Nearly missed the target. I WAY overanticipated the kick, and still got hurt! If I'm ever charged by a rhino though, and a .577 double isn't available, sign me on to the .450! It was leaving "IMPACT CRATERS" in the backstop about the size of a small desert plate :eek:!

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I thought I'd seen it all, until a 22WMR spun a bunny 2 1/4 times in the air!
 
What's a little silly, the 450 is really a reloader's cartridge. So why not buy the widely available 45-70 components instead and load it even hotter than the 450? The 45-70 has been around too long to be booted.


Hueco
 
I wrote Hornady a while back via E-mail on the .450 Marlin round. My basic question was, "Is the .450 marlin a commecialized version of the .458x2 Inch American, designed by Fred Barnes? They said it was similar, but had differences. Talk about doubletalk. Looking at what photos I've seen, the main difference is the belt is wider than other magnum rounds. That'll keep you from cutting down .458 Mag. brass and making the rounds. Kinda gives them a captive market.
Paul B.
 
The .450 is superior to the 45-70 in many ways. But the big thing was seemingly a liability issue on 45-70 ammo. Being such an old load, most older rifles could not handle the pressure of modern 45-70 offerings. A local shop thinks Marlin will phase out the 45-70 for this reason. He is having a hard time finding them, and many wholesalers aren;t getting any more either.
Could also be a money making ploy too!


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I thought I'd seen it all, until a 22WMR spun a bunny 2 1/4 times in the air!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hueco:
I think this calibre has more to do with making money than being a great round.
[/quote]


There it is. Marlin just needed something "new" to sell, so, viola, the .450. A short-action belted version of the .45-70. I'd stick with ol' tried and true, m'self.


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Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
Does anyone have a comparison of near max loads of the 45/70 and the .450 Marlin. All I've seen so far is factory load data for the .450 Marlin.
What does Garrett think he can squeeze out of the .450 ?
 
The problem is not the cartridges, it's the rifle. Maximum pressure for a Marlin is about 40000 PSI. Both cartridges can safely be loaded to those levels. Where 45-70 Government shines is in the wide range of available product and the load data at hand. At this time, Hornady is the only company selling the dies. There are no cases in the market as of yet and no one has released any load data.

Also, there is a class four 45-70 load with a maximum pressure of 50000 PSI for Browning and Ruger single action rifles. There is no indication that the 450 will do the same.

Robert
 
Milehi.
Data comes from HANDLOADER Magazine for 45-70 data, SHOOTING TIMES Magazine for .450 Marlin load data, and CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD 4th Ed. for .458x2inch American
45-70 300 gr. 2,005 FPS
.450 Marlin 300 gr. 2,495 FPS
.458x2" 300 gr. 2,412 FPS

45-70 350 gr. 1,891 FPS
.450 Marlin 350 gr. 2,235 FPS
.458x2" 350 gr.2,209 FPS

45-70 400 gr. 1,808 FPS
.450 Marlin 400 gr. 2,021 FPS
.458x2" 405 gr. 2,110 FPS

From this, it would seem that the .450 Marlin has the advantage over the 45-70. Notice the similarity between the .450 Marlin and the .458x2" American. The 45-70 has a larger head size that the other two rounds. This would cause more back pressure on the bolt due to it's larger head size.
Ken Waters, who developed the 45-70 loads is a conservative handloader. I can personally attest to his 400 gr. load for the 45-70 as being maximum. Fact is, it was a bit too warm for my particular Marlin 45-70.
The .450 data was done up by Rick Jamison using a custom pressure barrel and Oehler PBL.
The .458X2" was worked up in a bolt action rifle.
An interesting thing was Waters also had what he called "Super group 3" loads for use only in Ruger #1's, #3's and Siamese Mausers.
Even those loads do not reach the .450 Marlin specs. Most run about 100 FPS below the Marlin.
With all that said, I think I'll just stick with my Marlin 45-70. It is powerful enough for any hunting I'll do. I can push a 500 gr. cast bullet to 1,550 FPS that will pass through an elk from stem to stern will no problem at all. If I need more power, I'll use my Ruber #1 and push that same bullet to 1,800 FPS. Either way, I'll feel my pain. Those loads hurt just a tad.
Hope this info answered your question.
Paul B.
 
Just to toss my $0.02 in here - the belt on the .450 Marlin was made longer than the belt on the .458 Magnum and on the .458x2" American round so the round could not be chambered and fired in older belted magnum rifles like 6.5STW, .458 Magnum, etc. It was NOT done to prevent people from cutting down .458 Magnumbrass to make this round.

Both this month's Shooting Times and American Rifleman both feature excellent info on this cartridge. Shooting Times worked up some really amazing reloads for this cartridge that make it very flexible and go way beyone 45-70 performance.

Personally, if I were hunting bear, this would be the first rifle/cartridge combo I would grab!
 
If you need more power than the 45-70, the logical thing to do is to step up to a 458. The 458 has better availabilty of components than the 450. It's more powerful than the 450. The 450 is a round without a home. It's a solution to a problem that doesnt exist. It's not a liability issue folks. Handloaders are responsible for their own actions. Since when to companies produce new calibres to "protect" handloaders? (And it *is* a handloader's cartridge. Look at the 416 Rigby, you can get it factory..but only from like one source -- Federal.)


Hueco
 
From the data I've seen, the .45-70 will do everything the .450 will do and more.

Marlin is advertising the .450 with a 350 grain bullet at 2200.In .45-70 Buffalo Bore Ammo is as hot and Garrett Ammo does better.

The main reason for the change is liability. Too many old style, weak actions around to heat up the .45-70 ammo. The handloads I use are pushing a 405 grain bullet at 1725 FPS and I can go up to 1975 FPS and this is from a 16.5" barrel. My buddy has a Guide Gun and it does 200 FPS better. Garrett has 415 grainers at 1850 FPS and 530 grainers at 1550! :eek: Cor-bon makes some good loads too.
With a light weight .45-70 you can get too much of a good thing for your shoulder. I toned mine down a little and it will still do more than I need.

Wild West Guns in Alaska has their own version of the .45-70 Magnum with their .457 Magnum and it's hotter yet. It's a strech version of the .45-70 AND can shoot the standard loads. IMHO this is the way to go. More ammo choices. Of course it is fun to be the first kid with the new toy. :)

Just my $.02 Links below.
www.garrettcartridges.com www.wildwestguns.com www.corbon.com www.buffalobore.com

Edited for stupid fingers.

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"Carry" on

Rick

I prefer armed combat to unarmed combat. It's easier on the knuckles.

[This message has been edited by Speedy (edited June 04, 2000).]
 
The internal ballistics of the .450 Marlin and 45-70 aside, is the action the same?

Marlin has the .444. and the .450 and Jim West has the .457. They all use the same action, I think.

Do the different cartridge design have a significant impact on the ability of the action to withstand pressure??

Noel
 
Maybe I am just stupid, but what would be so bad about chambering the .450 in a .458? The .450 uses a .458 diameter bullet, yes? Wouldn't this chambering of 450 in a 458 be comparable to a 458 Win Mag into a 458 Lott?


Hueco
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hueco:
Maybe I am just stupid, but what would be so bad about chambering the .450 in a .458? The .450 uses a .458 diameter bullet, yes? Wouldn't this chambering of 450 in a 458 be comparable to a 458 Win Mag into a 458 Lott?
Hueco[/quote]


Probably nothing wrong. As I understand it, though, the problem is that, without the longer belt, you could chamber the .450 in an 8mm or .416 Remington. That would be bad news, liability-wise (though some would just call it Darwin in action :D ).
 
I understand now Jeff, thanks. Oh gee, you don't think having the bbl size the bullet down from 458 to 416 would cause OP? What's wrong with you? I thought more pressure caused higher velocity. It'd be cool to do!(kidding, kidding) ;) Looking at the current state...natural selection is being way to selective.


Hueco
 
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