Marlin .44 mag, 1-20" twist

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bamaranger

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Just read in my May 2022 issue of RIFLE magazine that Ruger/Marlin intends to rifle their .44 mag model 1894 lever carbines 1 :20 " , when they get around to producing them. . I've thought for sometime that the traditional 1:38" was a shortfall and limited the .44 carbines with general accuracy and especially heavy bullets.
 
Interesting. I have 2 Rossi lever carbines in 44mag and they have I believe 1:30 twist. They've always shot 240 and 265 gr bullets better than the lighter ones, but they do have a "taste" for warmer (faster) loads. I don't get the logic of faster twist for stabilizing for even bigger bullets since you're going to hit the wall on case capacity and velocity, but maybe they have something new in the works?? Or maybe they have in mind flexibility for 44 special?
 
My henry is running a 1:20, been shooting great with 240s in 44mag and 280s in 44spl. Have not had a chance to get anything heavier yet.

In general heavier bullets are longer. The stability of the bullet is in relation to its length, diameter and rpm's. Longer bullets need faster twis to stabilize.


In some cases a bullet may be marginally stable but given a bit more velocity it will stabilize due to the increased rpm's.
 
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Revolvers

As I have posted before, .44 mag revolvers are twisted apps 1:18. and are generally thought of as fine shooters re accuracy. My 1:38 carbines will not shoot 265's worth a hoot, and my S&W 629 will out shoot my carbines at 50 yards w/ 240's. My Dad's scoped Super B would out shoot my carbines at 100 yards all day.

Henry's choice of 1:20, Ruger use of same in the defunct 96/99 series carbines is more proof that Winchester, Marlin and early Ruger carbines were on the wrong track. Predicting great things for the new Ruger/Marlin .44's.
 
I’m glad to hear that. Any mention of the bore (groove) size? My 2015 Marlin 1894 has 1:38 twist with a .431 bore groove. The only thing that shoots in it are .432 diam bullets driven hard, and I’m not satisfied with the groupings thus far.
 
Good to hear that they're talking about bringing the 1894 back.
Did you heave whether it will be before or after the 336?
And is it a traditional square bolt 1894? Or are they going with the 1983 experimental design, where the 1894 was built as a short 336 with a round bolt?

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1:38" is too slow.
In my opinion, 1:20" is also too fast.

I really wish they'd drop back to 1:24" at least, preferably 1:26" to 1:28".

I have three 1:20" barrels, and one 1:38" barrel; having also previously owned another 1:20"; with yet another 1:20" in the family. (444s and 1894s)

While the 1:20" twist is generally okay for .44 Mag, it is still overkill. And for the faster .444 Marlin and 1:20", I have documented properly sized cast bullets 'skidding' across the rifling before 'biting' and twisting properly, or stripping jacket material before 'biting' and rotating as intended.
1:20" is too fast.


But it is a "standard" twist rate. "So, why bother reinventing the wheel..."
 
There was a shop that developed an upgrade for the original Ruger Deerslayer.
A 20" twist barrel with the gas block dovetailed in instead of soldered on. It was claimed to be a good bit more accurate and handling heavier bullets but it showed up about the time the model was discontinued and never went anywhere.
 
When I build ,444 rifles, I always use a 1:20 barrel because the 1:36 or 1:38 sold by a few makers will not stabilize the 265 gr or heavier bullets. The 1:20 stabilizes then really well. I'm not sure why they think they need 1:20 for a 44 mag rifle, most people are fine with the slower twist barrels since most shooters limit themselves to 240 gr or below for a 44 mag.
 
Not my favorite load, but I have loaded Cast Performance 320s in 44 Mag. Scorch, you like the 444 Marlin, yes? Tell me why I should find one!
 
Scorch, you like the 444 Marlin, yes? Tell me why I should find one!
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Well, I like it for a variety of reasons: it's accurate and shoots flatter than a 45-70, it's a large caliber that packs a good punch but doesn't beat you up too much (kind of a poor man's magnum, if you will), and a box of ammo does not require a bank loan. 444 Marlin is about $60-$80/box, 375 H&H (my other heavy hitter) is about $100-120/box. I had a Mauser 98 (Brazilian 1906) I salvaged and rebarreled to 444 Marlin, and it shoots cloverleaf groups at 100 yds. I keep telling myself I'll take it to CA on a pig hunt, but I've been working too much for the past 10 years so I haven't made it yet. I'm retiring this year and I promised my son we'd go on a pig hunt, so I'll get a chance to try it out.

Plus there's just something funny about the look on peoples' faces when they see the size of the bore at the muzzle. :D
 
And those prices are why I reload :)

375 Has been on my bucket list since I saw some dummy cartridges in a display case in a Cabela's when I was in High School. 444 is super cool, but is not legal for deer here in Indiana on public land, so I went 44mag.

I'm glad henry went with the 1:20 personally as I am shooting 265-285g 44specials through mine. And while I tend to lean toward the 240g for 44mag, I do want to go heavier up into the 300g range at some point.
 
Well, I like it for a variety of reasons: it's accurate and shoots flatter than a 45-70, it's a large caliber that packs a good punch but doesn't beat you up too much (kind of a poor man's magnum, if you will), and a box of ammo does not require a bank loan.
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I have a 444 and couldn't have said it better myself.;) I have a single shot as well, so I can shoot cutting edge higher BC pointy things.
 
I PREFER my handload .45-70s over .444 but both are thread drift and off topic so lets talk them elsewhere.

.44 Mag twist....Marlin with 1-20??

I think before anyone passes judgement, we ought to see how the rifles actually shoot, on average. And, while Ruger has promised, I'm not seeing any yet so, who knows what they will do??

One thing to be on the lookout for, is the fact that tube magazine lever guns (and especially the Marlin designs) are NOT very tolerant of over length rounds.

So, before you get all worked up over if the rifling will stabilize a 265 or 300gr or other heavy bullet, you might want to determine if that bullet can be loaded to work through the action. And, you're gonna need a rifle to do that.
 
Just read in my May 2022 issue of RIFLE magazine that Ruger/Marlin intends to rifle their .44 mag model 1894 lever carbines 1 :20 " , when they get around to producing them. . I've thought for sometime that the traditional 1:38" was a shortfall and limited the .44 carbines with general accuracy and especially heavy bullets.
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I've always wanted a faster than 1-38 twist and agree a 1-20 may be a little too much of a good thing also. I don't care about shooting extra heavy bullets either. If you load them to a length that will cycle through the action you really reduce the powder capacity.

My Ballard rifled 44 mag will keep 240gr bullets in about a 3.5-4" group at 100 yards with strange unexplained flyers sometimes. But at 80 yards it seems to be a 2" gun with my reloads or Winchester white box 240gr factory loads.

I think the oversized bores were done on the early guns because the SAAMI limits on 44 mag ammo used to be higher. So Marlin made the bores just a tad oversized to reduce the pressure somewhat. But I can't prove that.

My Ballard rifled gun seems to be a little tighter on the bore. I bought it to be able to shoot lead bullets better but I don't remember ever shooting a single lead bullet through it.

If Ruger ever puts a new 44 mag on the market with a faster twist and the price isn't too crazy expensive I will consider buying one. But then again maybe not. I don't shoot the 44 mag I have now all that much. I am much more inclined to shoot the Marlin 357 mag rifle. My favorite gun of all.
 
I have a 20" Marlin 1894 and I'm pretty sure it's a 1:38 twist (I don't have the info in front of me).

I almost always shoot 240gn bullets through it. Now I haven't shot it a lot but I really struggle with its accuracy - or lack thereof. I have a 4x (I think) scope on it. At 50 yards (off a bench rest), it's real accurate at first - until it warms up. When it gets hot, I can't even keep the bullets on paper - seriously. It's awful.

Now I'm not done working on getting it accurate. I've done some experimenting with it and it seems that it doesn't like Everglades bullets (240 JHP). Sierra's 240's seem to be better; and, Hornady's 240 XTP's seem even better yet. More experimenting is needed, however.

I've used HS-6, 2400, and W296 as propellants. 2400 seems to do the best. HS-6 the worst (I'm out of HS-6 anyway, so that's moot).

I also use mixed brass, so that could be an issue too.

Like I said, I have more experimenting to do.

As a side note, I have a Henry 357 (16" bbl) and everything I put through it is tack-driver accurate.
 
I almost always shoot 240gn bullets through it. Now I haven't shot it a lot but I really struggle with its accuracy - or lack thereof. I have a 4x (I think) scope on it. At 50 yards (off a bench rest), it's real accurate at first - until it warms up. When it gets hot, I can't even keep the bullets on paper - seriously. It's awful.
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How many shots are you firing at a time? The bigger bore Marlins are known for changing POI as the barrel heats up. If you own several Marlins in different calibers measure the outside barrel diameter. You will find all the round barrel guns from 30-30 to 45-70 all have the same outside diameter to the barrel. I guess Marlin used one size barrel blank. They just drilled different size holes in them.

My 30-30s can be shot quite a few times without the POI changing much. But with my 44 mags about 4 shots is all I get. shot number 5 will usually leave the group a little. Or a lot.

I never made this connection until I read about it in a magazine article. I suspect the guns with the octagonal barrels don't have this problem. They have a little more meat on the barrel. Also try loosening off the front barrel band. If tight it can cause funny stresses when the barrel expands from heat and is pushing against the magazine tube. Another reason I like half magazine tubes.

I have read that some will remove the mag tube and test fire the guns by single loading to see if the magazine is casing accuracy issues. Since you are reloading try backing off the charge some too. And I know it sounds silly but make sure your barrel is really clean. Use a good copper remover. Not just Hoppe's or something like that. I really like Barnes CR-10 copper remover myself.
 
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That's not true.
Modern models don't all have the same barrel profiles.

Round barrel 1894s all had the same barrel profile at the end of production, but some earlier 'small bore' guns had more taper and smaller diameters at the muzzle.

For the 336 family:
(336, 444, 1895, MX, XLR)
I don't know about .38-55, but everything from .22 Zipper to .338 Federal uses the standard (".30-30") profile.

.44 and .45 caliber barrels have slightly different taper and muzzle diameter, but are based on the .444 profile that was first established in 1963, after testing with the short-lived, but slimmer profile of the 336-44 Magnum.

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And, just because I have an opportunity to beat the horse that should be long-dead by now, but keeps coming up in every corner of the interwebs:
The new model 1895 is *not* a "beefed up" or "larger" action than the 444 or 336.
The 444 is essentially a 336 action with some additional milling (and some claim different heat-treat, but a former Marlin engineer says that is not true). The 1895 was derived from the 444, with even more milling. The new model 1895 in .45-70 and .450 Marlin was the *weakest* action Marlin ever made in the 336 family.
 
But with my 44 mags about 4 shots is all I get. shot number 5 will usually leave the group a little. Or a lot.
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Sounds familiar.

try loosening off the front barrel band. If tight it can cause funny stresses when the barrel expands from heat and is pushing against the magazine tube. Another reason I like half magazine tubes.
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Never thought of that. I may well try that.

Since you are reloading try backing off the charge some too.
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Yes, my loads aren't max, but still, playing with the powder charge weights is something that may well happen.

I know it sounds silly but make sure your barrel is really clean. Use a good copper remover. Not just Hoppe's or something like that. I really like Barnes CR-10 copper remover myself.
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I am good about cleaning my guns. But, all I use is Hoppe's#9. I've considered using a copper remover a time or two (for this, and my other guns). Maybe I should reconsider.

Good food for thought ThomasT. Thank you.
 
Strange but my 336-44 shoots 265 gr Hornady FP more accurate than 240 gr bullets. I have no issue with Ruger changing to 1:20 but I agree totally with 44AMP's comments about lack of powder space in the 44 mag case, for heaver bullets.
tj
 
Good food for thought ThomasT. Thank you.
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You are most welcome. And one more thing to check on your gun. If you have the forend cap on your gun instead of the band and I suspect that you do, Take out the screws on the forend cap and see if they are under pressure from the forearm being just a tad long.

Mine on my newer 44 mag made in 2004 was. It was jammed hard against the cap and the screws were almost cross threaded in the hanger. When I found this out I told my bud about it and he checked his older micro-groove barreled gun and his WERE cross threaded from the factory.

So I slowly removed wood on the end that fits against the receiver until I got a stress free fit. I also sanded a little on the barrel channel and used Accra-glas gel to get a perfect fit. It didn't take much wood removal to get the wood to fit properly. I guess the factory didn't have time to really check the fit.

My bud called Marlin and explained that they had cross threaded his parts and they wouldn't send him free replacement parts. He had to pay for them himself. Anyway he sanded everything to fit stress free and put his gun back together.

We both shaved a couple of inches off the 100 yard groups doing this. My gun went from shooting over 5" groups with a scope to shooting ~3" groups with open sights at 100 yards. Thats about all I expect from a PCC carbine.
 
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