Marlin 1893 and modern ammo

Terry Gerros

New member
I have acquired a Marlin 1893 lever gun whose serial number says it was built in 1894 (according to oldguns.net). I am itching to shoot this rifle but am a wee bit concerned about using modern cartridges. I've purchased a box of Black Hills 38-55 Win Cowboy Action Ammunition, 255 grain lead flat nose cartridges. Safe or unsafe. The rifle is in great condition and the action is tight. Thanks for any information you might offer to what may be a very simple question.
 
I wouldn't have any hesitation to fire that rifle, given your descriptions. The 38-55 cowboy loads are pretty light in the pressure dept. as well.
 
I don't know if an 1894 manufactured Marlin is black powder era or not. You need to reseach this before you start putting modern smokeless loads through the thing. The cartridge was a blackpowder cartridge prior to 1894 and it is likely it was a blackpowder cartridge afterward.


http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?360866-1893-marlin-question

I believe it was sometime in late 1895, the year your rifle was manufactured, that "Special Smokeless Steel" was introduced to the Model 1893 barrels and incorporated within their nomenclature. My model 1893 dated to 1897, pix below (best available), does reflect the term. Presumptively your rifle was not intended for smokeless powder and that original barrel should be limited to black powder pressures. Those early Marlins were nice guns, just not particularly shooters within the modern realm.


also on the topic:


http://www.marlin-collectors.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17059

Given the very early nature of this rifle, I would stick to blackpowder loads only. Any firearm built in 1894 was made in a period of immature metallurgy technology and primitive factory process controls. This was before vacuum tube technology!. The process controls of the period were basically sight, taste, sound. The materials of the era were plain carbon steels, steels which today are so low grade and cheap they are used for rebar and railroad ties. Whenever I have read an analysis of the chemical structure of these early steels, they are loaded with impurities and slag. The same steels made today are much stronger:

Rolling Block strenght
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?52526-Rolling-Block-strenght/page2

I did not know this until I looked as a response to your post. However, I have worked with Steel my entire professional career. I was the head of a Testing Lab in a steel manufacturing facility for 4+ years. During that time, I was provided a ferrule from a WW1 fighter airplane for testing. It was made from what was labeled "high strength steel" (the label was from WW1). I tested it and found that it was lower strength than the lowest strength steel that can be bought today. In addition, it had a lot more impurities than would be allowed today, particularly sulfer. (PS. "today" means from about 1975 to 1980). I know that steel has continued to increase since then in strength, ductility, and all the other desireable characteristics we use without thinking about it.


Even in 1936, Phil Sharpe was warning shooters about early firearms:

There has been a great deal of improvement in steels, whether they be ordinary soft steels or various forms of nickel steel. No attempt with be made here to describe steels, as the subject would require and entire book. Thirty years ago, very little was known about heat treatment..

If you had a Winchester Model 1892 manufactured in 1905 and an identical model manufactured in 1935, assuming the original gun to be in perfect condition inside and out, you might place them side by side and notice absolutely no difference at firs glance. Careful study, however, will reveal that the later gun is manufactured better, with a minimum of tolerance, slap, looseness or whatever you may choose to call it. That, however, is the minor part of the of the whole thing. There will be little laboratory resemblance between the material of which the two gun are manufactured. Changes and improvements are being made constantly, and where changes in the quality of steel or the strengthening of certain parts through heat treatment are made, the factory rarely, if ever, makes any announcement. If these same Model 92 rifles were fired with a Magnum .38/40 load, it is quite possible that the earlier gun might go to pieces, while the later one would be perfectly safe. These facts must always be considered in handloading.

Complete Guide to Handloading by Philip B Sharpe. First Edition 1937, Chapter XXX, Magnum Handgun and Rifle Possibilities. Mr Sharpe was born in 1903, died 1961.

You need to spend more time determining just exactly whether your rifle was rated for smokeless or not, and even if it was smokeless safe, you need to keep any and all smokeless loads low pressure.
 
Thanks for the reply. Most helpful. Special Smokeless Steel is stamped on the barrel. Does this offer any insight to using modern cartridges?
 
Thanks for the reply. Most helpful. Special Smokeless Steel is stamped on the barrel. Does this offer any insight to using modern cartridges

I would suggest going to a Marlin Collector's website and get more informed opinions about smokeless and these early rifles. I do not know enough about them other than to describe the technology of the era and the risks of the metallurgy.

You cannot go wrong shooting blackpowder in your rifle as an alternative.
 
Actually I just registered with the Marlin site, after reading the link you sent, and posted the same question. It's a beautiful rifle and I don't want to damage it. Thank you for you insight.
 
Since you lead me to believe you buy store bought. You'll have to do a little online research in finding a custom ammo business that offers appropriate reduced powder charged cast ammo for that old gal (Marlin.)

If you were a home reloader I do know {free to read web sites} having reduced powder & different cast weight recipes to follow. Good luck and enjoy that Marlin.
 
Yes, they are store bought. I went to their Black Hills website and they state for all their cowboy action ammunition, "We involve the shooters. We ensure every load is authentic. We sweat the details. To that end, we’re proud to offer period correct ammunition fit for 1880 or tomorrow afternoon." I have a number to call them and get their opinion.
 
Marlin was very conscientious about ammo selection.
Not only did they mark barrels "Special Smokeless Steel" they also had the B Grade "Black Powder Only" rifles, clearly marked as such.

A quick review of reloading data finds .38-55-250 gr cast up to 1400 fps at pressures of about 18000 CUP AT THE STARTING LOAD LEVEL. This is the pressure commonly listed as "Trapdoor Loads" for .45-70 Springfields. An early edition Accurate Arms manual developed nitro-for-black loads based on chamber pressure measurements in the 20000-25000 psi range for real black. Which agrees with Phil Sharpe's data for a .45-70-500 at 25000 psi (Pre WWII crusher gauge, CUP in computerspeak.)

So I would not be afraid of mild smokeless loads in an 1893 Marlin.

Since Black Hills does not make any statement as to the pressure of their "Cowboy Loads" we cannot be sure it is in the "nitro-for-black" range. They might well have used a small charge of fast powder and let the pressure run to the "modern" 30000 CUP. Probably save them a couple of cents a shot. You could call and ask.
 
The Black Hills website only states the 38-55 cowboy loads run 1250 fps, but nothing about chamber pressure range. Definitely will be giving them a call. Thanks for your reply and insight.
 
Unless marked "Black Powder Only", Marlin 1893s were designed and heat-treated for smokeless powder loads. (Even then... there's some debate about whether Marlin actually used inferior steel and/or heat-treating for the BP-only marked examples.)

If the rifle is in good condition, and given a clean bill of health by a person with enough experience to do so, then original 'factory level' ammunition shouldn't be a problem.
Just go easy on the old girl. She's had a long, hard life, and doesn't want to be pushed.



The process controls of the period were basically sight, taste, sound. The materials of the era were plain carbon steels, steels which today are so low grade and cheap they are used for rebar and railroad ties
Possibly not the best analogy. Much modern rebar is the same grade of steel as the axle shafts in my truck. ...Because, well, it's made from recycled axle shafts and rail steel (as specified in ASTM A996 / A996M - 16).

In fact, I just remembered... There's a ~36" long, 1" (#8, grade 60) piece of rusty rebar laying on the floor about six feet from me, as I type this. Why? Because its yield strength and tensile strength are about the same as hot-rolled 4140, and I'm on a quest to find some one crazy enough to drill and rifle it for me. Yes, a rebar barrel is intent. No, I'm not worried.
 
I have one of those old guns that I bought around 2006.

As mentioned above, it is marked "Special Smokeless Steel" on the barrel.

Those old Marlins varied a bit in the bore. Mine slugs at 0.380". I suggest that you slug your Marlins bore to make sure what you have.

I shot some Winchester ammo early on and it is very mild. I chronographed it at 1165 fps. Winchester makes the ammo on a seasonable basis, which can make it hard to find.

I have had a mold made that casts 0.382" with my alloy. It was made by Accurate Molds and I had some modifications made to a catalogued bullet. It casts at 260 gr. and has a 65% meplat.

With those cast bullets, it will shoot 2" at 100 yds with the original sights. My longest shot has been a beer can at 185 yds. I hit it on the second shot after I got the elevation figured out. Turns out, I didn't need much hold over at all.

I also have hit a turtle at that range.

The old Marlins will handle the long brass made by Starline. I purchased a 250 count bag.

Jason Sage of Sage's Outdoors made me some special plain base gas checks that match the bore.

If you reload for it, I suggest that you get the Cowboy dies from RCBS. It can be purchased with an oversized expander that makes loading the oversized bullets very easy and the brass is not bulged by the bullets. The Cowboy dies have a special seater than will not mar the cast bullets....the seater in the regular die set will ring the hell out of them.

Some of the rifles will develop head space problems and the primer will back out a little. This is due to wear on the action.

The 2 best smokeless powders for me so far have been IMR 4198 and RL 7.

I have not tried IMR 4895 as yet and it is supposedly accurate also.

Due to the age of the old gun, I max my loads at 1500 fps, with my best coming in at approximately 1400 fps.

I have some black powder loads that I still need to try out.

My plans are to take the old Marlin out and try to bag an Axis deer. They are legal all year long and no limit here in Texas.

Good luck with your rifle and have some fun with it.

Let me know it you need any more info that you don't presently have.
 
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I had reason to research loading for an old ,beautiful Win 1886 45-90.
It was an octagon,lightweigt,takedown..checkered,color cased...etc with family provenance.I believe IIRC,it said "Nickel Steel". IIRC,at the time,years ago,the Blue Book put it at about $13,000 . Did not matter. Part of the family ranch history. Not for sale.

The one caution that I was given by multiple sources...including Mt Baldy Bullets was that these barrels were very soft.I was cautioned to NOT use jacketed bullets and to not even use a very hard cast bullet.
The danger is in damaging the rifling.

I do not pretend to have the definitive answer. These were knowledgeable people acting in good faith. An irreplaceable $13,000 rifle was at stake.

I talked to the Gentleman at Mt Baldy. He was familiar with the issue and made bullets to suit.
They were not cheap,but they were the work of an Artisan. Beautiful,sharp,perfect bullets. SPG lubed,packaged in foam blocks so each bullet had its own safe space.

I'm sure you can buy cheaper cast bullets..but I don't know where to buy better cast bullets than Mt Baldy.

And,agreed with Dufus,knowing your bore dimensions via slugging is where to start.Tailor your bullets and loading tools from there.

I'll mention Venturino's book again.Its specific to Win and Marlins of your vintage and includes loading info. I suggest you at least read the description at Amazon and the reviews.

Do talk to Black Hills. They are probably the most reputable remanufacturer/custom manufacturer of ammo out there. My assumptions(which may be worthless) are Cowboy action shooting ammo will be made to the parameters of not beating up vintage guns,not beating up target steel,mild recoil,etc. It just might be ideal for you.But verify!
 
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MY .38-55 is an old rebore from .32-40 and it is .378" in the grooves.
A .379" bullet is JUST big enough, would use .380" if buying a custom mould.
Back in those days, when they said .38-55, they meant it.

Been a lot of shooters disappointed by reading Lyman saying .375" for the past 50 years or more.
 
The Marlin 1893 should be safe with modern loads. The OP says the barrel is marked for smokeless loads, and smokeless loads for black powder cartridges are typically loaded to "black powder equivalent", which usually means 20,000 psi or so.
 
I did speak with one of the guys at Black Hills this morning. I was told as long as the barrel is stamped for smokeless powder, their cartridges will be fine, as they are a low pressure load. Now I just need to have a gunsmith take a peak at my beauty and be certain she is sound enough.
 
The process controls of the period were basically sight, taste, sound. The materials of the era were plain carbon steels, steels which today are so low grade and cheap they are used for rebar and railroad ties
Possibly not the best analogy. Much modern rebar is the same grade of steel as the axle shafts in my truck. ...Because, well, it's made from recycled axle shafts and rail steel (as specified in ASTM A996 / A996M - 16).

In fact, I just remembered... There's a ~36" long, 1" (#8, grade 60) piece of rusty rebar laying on the floor about six feet from me, as I type this. Why? Because its yield strength and tensile strength are about the same as hot-rolled 4140, and I'm on a quest to find some one crazy enough to drill and rifle it for me. Yes, a rebar barrel is intent. No, I'm not worried.

How interesting. Why don't you come up with a better analogy that I can use? The materials of the era were plain carbon steels ............................." I need something accurate, I need something concise, but familiar so those who do not know as much about steel as you do, get the idea. I don't need a three page version, I need the half MOA version. Something punchy and short. It will be interesting to read what modern steels and applications you found analogous to those used in 1894.
 
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