marksmanship or something else

O

oley55

New member
trying to get a grip on what's going on with some of my workup loads. It seems like I will often have 3 or 4 rounds grouped very tight (touching or nearly so). Those not grouping tight are almost always left of the tight group, either 8 o'clock or 10 o'clock. These occur even when I am very confident of my breathing, hold, and trigger pull.

My basic markmenship training was obtained at Paris Island in 1975 using iron sights. I qualified six times in the Corps with 1 Marksman :eek:, 1 sharpshooter :o, and 4 Expert :). I am now using a 6-20 variable scope (fairly new to scopes) and wonder if these seeming flyers are a marksmanship problem (trigger/scope) or a reloading problem. If it matters I am a righty.
 
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When I shot out my first M1A barrel, that's pretty much how it behaved. First a 10:00 9 that ruined an otherwise clean 20 shot slow fire string. Assumed it was me. Then the next time there were two points dropped. By the end of that summer it was throwing one in five outside the group, and then, finally, the lightbulb came on that it might not be me, and that I had over 3,000 rounds through that barrel and it was time for it to fade.

Most people expect a barrel will just gradually open groups up uniformly when it is shot out, but that ain't how it happens. I read something by a Sierra employee a few years after that barrel went south, say the same thing. They shoot groups with a test barrel until they get a flier, then they change it. Their barrels are on a machine rest, so they know the shooter didn't cause it.

So, what chambering, how many rounds through it, and what is the barrel made of?

The other obvious thing is to look for stock contact on the side of the barrel. Sometimes it's the side opposite the fliers, but sometimes it's on the same side, depending how far forward or backward it is.
 
Nick,

it's an AR15, 556, stainless steel 24" 1:8 HBAR, previously owned so total round count unknown. I've put approximately 450 down the tube.

this is the same barrel discussed in another thread about it fouling within 12-15 rounds.
 
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We obtained our marksmanship training in the same place, although mine was in 1976. I imagine you've tried factory match loads to set a baseline? That would be a good place to start.
Semper Fi!
 
it's an AR15, 556, stainless steel 24" 1:8 HBAR, previously owned so total round count unknown. I've put approximately 450 down the tube.

this is the same barrel discussed in another thread about it fouling within 12-15 rounds.
Click to expand...

While it sounds like it's good enough for varmint hunting (if you miss, you can take another shot) it doesn't sound like it's where you want for competition/target shooting.

Maybe replace and keep a real round count?

http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17576

Jimro
 
The problem might just be the curse of the 5th bullet. Many times I've had a great 4 shot group and have the 5th one ruin it. Seems to me it's always that last one.

Fliers will make you crazy. I'm pretty sure that my problem is me and not the rifle (rifles), but who knows. One thing that I am sure of is that the better the barrel the fewer the fliers. Which is why I just had a decent barrel replaced with a high dollar new barrel on my 223.
 
The beauty of Savage rifles

You can replace the barrels yourself. Once you get set up, replacing the barrel on a Savage is the cost of the barrel + shipping. Hate that not all of my rifles are Savage. :(
 
The Ar can be a tricky to shoot with some stock configurations. My guess is that you are holding it ever so slightly different when it throws a flyer.
I can not shoot a telescoping stock accurately no matter how hard I try.:mad:
I have A2 rear stock on anything I want to be accurate.
 
With respect,
And I got my basic marksmenship at Paris Island, my long range marksmenship training at Quantico.

A good 75% of guys running magnified optics don't formally educate themselves on the proper use.
They don't understand what changing focus on the occular lense does with lense alignment,
Virtually none have parallax adjustment is or how to check it,
The usually don't have a clue about range adjustments...
Something as simple as eye relief is screwed up half the time.

This all combines to give you a false sight picture.
*IF* you get a solid cheek weld, focus and parallax adjustments are correct,
You don't move and you get fliers, then its probably mechanical and not optics or shooter.

If you so much as change focus or look around, and you suddenly get a flier,
Then suspect an optics misalignment/misadjustment.
 
Jeephammer,

Once I was reasonably happy with my eye relief I torqued the scope down and have not moved it. I have a Magpul Precision-Adjustable Stock and have fine tuned cheek height and length to the point I can usually slide into my shooting position with my eyes closed, open them and find a perfectly clear image. I admit sometimes, my alignment will be off a bit when I open my eyes. The image will be a bit washed out. I guess that means I do not have a perfectly consistent cheek weld.

I was/have been wondering about sight alignment with the scope. To eliminate the variables, when I am load testing, once I start shooting I make absolutely no adjustments to the scope. I am shooting to find the tightest group, regardless of POI. Just trying to eliminate the variables.

reference your comments quoted below, can you recommend a source for educating myself better on scope usage. I was/am fairly certain I do not know or understand all I should about scope usage (or my iPhone4). Frankly my plan has been to find a consistently accurate load and then spend a good deal of time playing with my scope and figuring out what happens when I adjust this or that.

A good 75% of guys running magnified optics don't formally educate themselves on the proper use.
They don't understand what changing focus on the occular lense does with lense alignment,
Virtually none have parallax adjustment is or how to check it,
The usually don't have a clue about range adjustments...
Something as simple as eye relief is screwed up half the time.
Click to expand...
 
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1975 is 40 years ago. (Geezuz, I was 21 in 1975. sniff.) You are not a young buck any more. You do nothing like you did then.
However, what's the load? You shooting off a bench or pretending you can hold the rifle still enough to sight in without a rest?
a 6X to 20X is too much scope for a .223. Not that the scope is involved. Assuming it's installed right.
 
Caldwell bipod on the bench with a squeeze bag under the stock gives me a pretty tight hold.

24" 1:8 HBAR, 69gr MK HPBT, 25.4gr Varget, LC brass, CCI #41. Last trip to the range I got 4 rounds in a 5/16" group with a flyer 5/8" left at 8 o'clock, giving me a 3/4" group. That's the deal, tight 4 round groups with one flyer always to the left.

And yea, I was 20 in 1975, making me a very young 60 today. I can still out shoot my 38 year old Marine son, but not so with my 25 year old Marine son. He does cause me some embarrassment on occasion, hence the reason for optics these days. With iron sights keeping a clear front sight post has become increasingly difficult, unless I use an eye-pal patch on my glasses.
 
oley55

I had a problem with the A2 stock on my Les Baer .223 because the stock was too short for my long arms and I found that I was sliding forward towards the scope after a few shots even though I was convinced I didn't move. I wasn't sliding very far but it was enough to cause the last one or two rounds to go slightly higher than the first 3 or 4. That ruined really great groups and I was sure that I was doing something like jerking the trigger to cause the problem even though I didn't see the same problem on my bolt action .223 or any of my target .308s.

The Les Baer is a very accurate rifle and having a round get away was really bothering me.

I finally changed the A2 stock to an adjustable Magpul PRS and extended the back pad about as far as it would go. No more sliding forward and the last round or two doesn't get away anymore.

Check to see if you might be repositioning behind the scope, even the slightest bit. At 100 yards or more a slight movement during shooting a group can cause that kind of result.

To experiment, set up with your eye position as far back as you can get it so the black ring just disappears. Shoot a couple of rounds and mark the point of impact. Then set up with your eye position closer to the scope and shoot another couple of rounds. I would bet the point of impact will be different but the groups will be the same size.
 
Olley,
This is a tough one since you know what you are doing,
And since you are a MC trained shooter, you are probably doing everything right.

What I'm finding as I age, and rely on magnified optics more and more,
Is that its not just the optics (junk to excellent), but its the way they are mounted and adjusted.

Curvature of the lenses cause issues.
Starting around $800 the better manufacturers take this issue out in professional grade optics,
While the lesser grade manufacturers don't bother...

About the center 20% of the optic will be mostly true,
(Lenses centered, more or less)
The other 80% of the useable adjustment will NOT be centered, and you get all sorts of issues when you sight through those parts of the lenses.

One quick test for FOCAL PLANE is to bag or vice the rifle,
Sighted on a target,
And without touching the rifle, weave your head back and forth a little,
See if the reticle ('Cross Hairs') move on the target, target seeming to be stationary,
Or if the reticle seems solid and the target moves behind the cross hairs...

-----

Two parts more,
As we age, we gain skin thickness, and the skin slips on the bones easier,
Making a solid cheek weld harder to do.
The second part is, as we age the eye won't dilate to a full 6 or 7mm anymore,
So we have a tendency to get closer to the occular lense, screwing up eye relief/sight picture...

Add in gaining weight, adding some fat to help the skin slip issue,
And you can quite easily grip the rifle a little tighter without realizing it changing sight picture... Especially when you are shooting a good group and get a little excited towards the end!

I had to video myself to believe I was doing this, but I was on every good group, just to get a flyer or two right at the end...
How I trained myself not to choke up on the optics/rifle was a piece of rubber tubing on the occular to remind me to keep my eye relief.

When the rubber touched my eyebrow, I softened my death grip on the rifle, relaxed, got proper cheek weld and eye relief,
And fired the remaining shots in the group...
My groups tightened back up.
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If the reticle seems solid, and the target moves behind them,
Its usually an optical illusion called Parallax.
There is usually an adjustable front lense or a 'Left' side knob for parallax adjustment...
And if you have turned the 'Occular' lense for focus (focal LENGTH, not focal PLANE), you can't believe the adjustment graduations.
Just adjust until things stop moving when you weave your head behind the optics.

If the reticle moves, and the target seems stable, that's focal LENGTH,
Or off centerline lenses.

Off centerline lenses will need to have the tube/rings adjusted so the lenses are in the center 20% of adjustment or so...
 
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