Many Guide Gun Questions:

B

Bob S

New member
Just went out with a friend over the weekend and happened upon a Marlin Guide Gun in 45/70. After handling it, I had to have it... sure it was an impulse buy... but what the heck, right??? Anyway, now that I have it, I have several questions:
1. How does the 45/70 compare to larger rifles calibers? (Is it really capable of stopping anything on the planet, or just north america?)
2. For those of you that have the guide gun, what is your favorite use for it?
3. Can a person find a butt cuff that will hold those fat rounds... and if so, where?
4. Any other accecories you would recomend
for my new rifle?
5. What are you general comments on this gun?

Any help you could give would be great!!
 
I don't have one myself, but I have learned a few things about it. I believe it is used as a bear gun, brush gun, and some guy on here went varminting with it ( :)). As far as the butt cuff -- sew your own! You can really customize it that way. You can decide how many loops, which way they are oriented, and where on the cuff you want them. I have heard people saying one thing not to get for it -- a scope. I think that defeats the purpose of the gun. It is for quick, close shots. It is not really designed for precise long shooting. HAve fun with it!


Hueco
 
I picked up a Guide Gun a few months ago, and I love it. My local retailer stocks a number of accessories for it, to include a butt cuff that holds about 7 rounds. It ran about $50 so I didn't buy it. Call me a cheapskate. My wish list for the gun includes an action job,(important if you like soft nosed rounds, as they can get caught on things inside) a set of ghost ring sights, as the stock ones are a bit tough to see in low light, and yes, the butt cuff. I'll give the guys at the shop a call, and see if they still have them in stock. If you're in the DC area let me know, and I'll give you directions. If not, we should at least be able to get you the manufacturer's name. On the usage front, the Guide Gun is good for just about anything you would want to put a hole in. There are a couple of threads in this forum that will point you to the high end ammo manufacturers. Have fun!
 
You may want to check out this site for modifications www.wildwestguns.com .

After Marlin saw the success of Jim West's "Co-Pilot" they decided to capitalize on it and came out with the "Guide" model.

The .45-70 is a great "bush" gun and is used alot in Alaska. Col Cooper even gave one of Jim's Co-Pilots to a PH who is using it in Africa.

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Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)
NRA Life, Lodge 1201-UOSSS
"Si vis Pacem Para Bellum"
 
One more thing,
You may want to invest in a nice big soft butt pad as well, because the thing kicks like a mule on amphetamines when you load it hot. Then again, that's part of the appeal ;)
 
Have had my Guide Gun for a couple of months and love it! First accessory I'd recommend is a good ghost ring sight. I put a set from Ashley Outdoors on mine, and I think I can hit with it as well as my AR-15 or M1-A out to 100yds. or so.

I shoot mine a great deal, mainly because it's so easy to hit with and it's such a handy little gun to carry along in the woods. I wouldn't mind finding a butt cuff, too, but I'd like something nice.

Greg

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"Happiness is a warm gun" John Lennon 1966
 
Get rid of the factory-supplied pad. Though vented, there is a solid beam running through it that stops compression. Replace it with a Decelerator. I ordered the Ashley aperture sight this afternoon; the factory recommends the .230 aperture and the .400 tall and .100 wide front blade. Great carbine.

[This message has been edited by 2shots (edited January 31, 2000).]
 
Bob, I'll only answer the first part of your question.

No, 45/70 is not nearly as powerful as the big stopping cartridges.

With light(er) bullets such as the 300gr Hollowpoint, it lacks sectional density and therefore the necessary penetration to be a "stopping" cartridge. It would be adequate for non-dangerous animals at short ranges and that's it. Even against bears, I would be inclined to use something more zesty.

With heavier bullets such as the 405gr or even the 500 gr, it lacks the velocity to provide any shock value, especially in factory form (you could boost figures if handloading for a strong Ruger N.1). I still would consider it a short-range, non-dangerous proposition.

To give you an idea, even a souped-up 400gr handload in 45/70 will deliver about 1,800fps (2,300f/lb), which is far less energy than an average factory 30/06. Instead, my pet cartridge, the 416Rigby chucks out a 410gr slug at about 2,350f/s for an energy quotient of 5,000+f/lb.

Authorities on the subject claim that taking any less than 4,000 f/lbs against the meanies is pure folly. That's probably why the 45/70 has never established itself in Africa or Asia. Nevertheless, it is a fun cartridge that has a lot of historical allure and its big, slow bullet sure makes a big enough hole! ;)

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If you are younger than 20 and not a Liberal, you have no heart.

If you are older than 20 and STILL a Liberal, you have no brain.
 
A few weeks ago I was doing some shooting on our hunting lease when one of the other members showed up with his Christmas present - a Guide gun in 45/70. I hated to see a scope on a lever action, but I still really wanted to fire that thing! After getting his scope set, he asked if I would like to try it and I jumped on the chance. I must say that I thought that it was one sweet shooting little gun. The recoil was not as severe as I would have expected (he was using factory 300 and 400gr HP) and it was plenty accurate for its purpose. I really think you'll enjoy it!

Jack
 
how is the recoil (shoulder pain) comparable to other calibers? much more than a 30-30? as much as a 30-06?
 
Bob S:

Your Guide Gun is a super hammer for anything out to about 200-yds. 400-grain class bullets can be driven to about 1850-fps safely, and provide a very useful trajectory (+3" @ 100-yds; zero @ 150-yds; -7" @ 200-yds). With proper hard-cast bullets, it will shoot from one end of a buffalo to the other, and do it with blunt hard-cast bullets that offer great diameter and quick incapacitation. Also, and this is very significant, since it transits its cartridges diffently than bolt-action rifles, it will allow the use of very blunt flatnose bullets that will bind up a bolt gun every time. This is a great advantage, as bolt guns require bullets of roundnose configuration, or at least something less blunt than flatnose in order to feed reliably. Also, don't let anyone tell you that it lacks the authority to handle the big stuff. That's the rant of those that worship at the alter of kinetic energy. At 130-yds our 415-grainer or 530-grainer will deliver as big a Taylor Knockout Value as 300-grain bullets from the 375 Holland & Holland at the muzzle!

After extensive testing the National Marine Fisheries Service selected it, along with our ammo, above all others for protecting their personnel from coastal grizzly attack. Also, as Jeff Cooper is fond of pointing out (GUNS & AMMO, FEB-2000), with our hard-cast bullets it is about idea for the great bears and African lions. Regarding sights, consider the Ashley Outdoors sight. It is extremely well suited to the Guide Gun.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com

[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited February 01, 2000).]
 
Mr Garret,

I respectfully disagree about your statement that the 45/70 is anywhere comparable to the large African cartridges, especially against dangerous game.

1) In factory form (i.e not including any of the custom or semi-custom handloads), in any confirutation and bullet weight, you can hardly blame my statement on any "ranting" of us supposed "kinetic energy" junkies. A 405-grain flatnose traveling at 1330 fps just won't hit nearly as hard as a 410gr 416 at 2370. Period. And a 300gr hollowpoint at 1800 fps won't hit as hard as a 300gr 375 at 2500. Period.

"In factory form, [the 45/70] is quite anemic"
Craig Boddington: Safari Rifles (P.77)

2) With handloads for the middle-of-the-road Marlin rifle, the situation improves but not by much. The 350gr roundnose bullet can be pushed at a 1850, maybe 1900 fps. We are still comparing it to a 375 at 2500. And we are still talking about a bullet with poor sectional density (.238 vs .305) which translates into quick shed of velocity in flight and, most importantly, poorer penetraion.

3) I don't know whether the figures of your custom ammunition dramatically alter these facts. You talk about Taylor knockout blow, but not about velocity. I suppose that, based on your TKOB figures, your 530grainer can be pushed at about 1600 fps, which is not bad. But still. Recommending Jeff Cooper to hunt lion and buffalo with that is one thing, but don't forget that an experienced hunter can even take an undisturbed elephant with a 6.5mm. Quite differently with the occasional hunter. I think that recommending an adequate margin of safety is the ethical and responsible thing to do.

4) I personally would prefer being armed with a 375 against dangerous game than with a 45/70 in ANY configuration, especially with a mdium-strenght action as the Marlin.


JDD, the 45/70 will kick pretty much like a full-house 30/06, all other factors being equal (such as rifle weight , stock configuration and kind of buttpad). Recoil is NOT directly proportional to bullet diameter, but only to bullet weight, muzzle velocity and (oddly enough) to the amount of powder burnt. Although the 45/70 sports heavier bullets (from 150 to 250 grains on average), velocity is about 1,000fps less, so they pretty much offset each-other.
 
416 Rigby,

I agree that the 45-70 as it has been conventionally loaded is quite underpowered, however, any caliber can be underloaded, but that is hardly a measure of a caliber's potential. The 45-70 has been underloaded for years because it is over 120-yrs old! Since there are still ancient firearms around that can fire, the great majority of commercial ammo builders refuse to load to the full potential of modern 45-70s. Your 416 is obviously a fine and powerful caliber, in fact it is one of my favorites, but impact-effect is not a measue of power generation alone. It is true that the 45-70 tends to lack significant range, but 200-yds is pretty respectable and at that range a proper hard-cast bullet from a modern 45-70 will still out-penetrate any expanding bullet from the high velocity calibers such as the 375 Holland & Holland. This is not a matter of speculation, this is something we and our customers and many professionals in the industry have been measuring for many years. Haven't you been reading any of this stuff in the media? A while back Phil Spangenberger of GUNS & AMMO took a big Cape buffalo with the 45-70 and our ammo and got 4-feet of penetration and a one-shot kill. He wrote that up. In fact, we have had over a hundred Cape buffalo taken with our 45-70 ammo over the years, and what we currently offer is more potent than what was used on most of those big buffs. Our new 530-grainer will penetrate nearly six-feet of wet newspapers, which is nearly twice what 300-grain solid from the 375 Holland & Holland can penetrate, and obviously a 458 bullet is a lot bigger around than a 375 bullet. Also, where our 530-grainer is concerned, its meplat is nearly equal to the bore diameter of the 375 H&H!

I'm not a fan of recoil for its own sake, however, a heavily loaded 45-70 generates far more recoil than any 30-06. That should be apparent from the Taylor Knockout Values it generates. Haven't you heard of that measure of power? It is far more relevant to impact-effect on heavy game than kinetic energy. However, whether the measure of power is kinetic energy or TKV or momentum, they all ignore the most relevant component to impact-effect, bullet performance. No measure of power discriminates between good bullets and bad, and that is invariably where the battles are won or lost.

Jeff Cooper and others, don't recommend the 45-70 for the great bears and African lions because professional hunters can sometimes take game with very small calibers. They recommend it because it is more effective than the great majority of high energy calibers for heavy and dangerous game, at the distances at which they are normally shot, close range. Read Cooper's Chronicles for more on the subject. The National Marine Fisheries Service based in Homer, Alaska ran extensive tests and found that the 45-70 with proper hard-cast bullets (ours) would outpenetrate anything they tested at the ranges they required. It wasn't even a close call, the 45-70 won easily.

There are many fine rifle calibers, but any notion that the 45-70 is not a premier heavy game caliber (in potential) is misguided. Check out our web site and read what the industry has said for years about the 45-70 with our ammo. Their comments are quite definitive.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com

[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited February 01, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited February 03, 2000).]
 
I know of a man here in Colorado who regularly takes Bison with his 45/70. I watched several videos of it and in every instance the Bison dropped like a ton of bricks. The ranges were 25 to 150 yards. Bison are big and tough...

He also has a big Alaskan Brown mounted in his den. He took that with a 45/70, too. No video this time, but he estimated the range at around 75 yards. He said the bear took no further steps. Alaskan Browns are big and tough...

So... I think the 45/70 will work on the "big and tough" animals well enough. Of course, the hunter must do his part, too.

Erik

Oh, and yes there are more powerful rounds available... But I would not feel undergunned with 45/70 handloads anywhere.
 
"To give you an idea, even a souped-up 400gr handload in 45/70 will deliver about 1'800fps (2'300f/lb)"

Am I missing something here? Why does Buffalo Bore Ammunition offer a 405gr @ 2000fps (3'597f/lb) and a 430gr @ 1925fps (3'537f/lb)? Check it out at sixgunner.com.

"And a 300gr Hollowpoint at 1800fps won't hit as hard as a 300gr 375 at 2500. Period."

How about a 350 @ 2100.

[This message has been edited by Jorge (edited February 01, 2000).]
 
Mr Garrett,

Your custom ammo sounds quite impressive, and I must confess that I have never heard of it (I only seldom read G&A).

I still would prefer to go against the tough African fellas with a 375, 416, 400/450, 450, 470 or the like than with a hard-cast 45/70 (just a matter of preference).

As far as the TKOB, yes, I have not only heard of it, but I am quite familiar with the formula too (=[MVxBDxBW]:7,000 if i'm not mistaken). But Pondoro himself says that "on paper", the 375 has a quite low knock out value, and that the cartridge's performance on game is the fruit of an "accidentally perfect" combinaiton between BW, MV and BD.

Besides, the TKOB cannot be used to measure free recoil, because it takes diameter into consideration and fails to include powder weight.

Also, while penetration is desirable (and your ammo seems to have plenty of it), I like to have some degree of expansion, which I don't suppose can be achieved by a 500-plus grain, hard-cast .458 slug at around 1500fps.

What I will say is that I really like the sound of your products, and that my rebuttals are by no means intended to be demeaning! :) Just having a friendly campfire discussion with you here.

Still, I'd rather face a wounded buffalo with my beloved 416Rigby and my reassuring 5000+ foot/pounds (and my TKOV of 57 vs 40). Whereas your bullet would doubtlessly kill it (eventually), mine would more likely stop it in numb its tracks.

But it is surely nice to know that the old warhorse is still alive, well and as mean as ever, thanks to the R&D of companies like yours.
 
Jorge,

I am by no means putting down the 45/70. The initiator of this topic specifically asked "how does it COMPARE to larger rifle calibers" and I merely answered that relative question.

Sure, the 45/70 can be hot-rodded like you say, and even more when you use a Ruger action.

But to say that it can have the combined ability to hit hard, penetrate, expand violently, or reach as far as one of the big Nitros or, worse yet, one of the Weatherbys is simply NOT TRUE. Even the 458Win (considered marginal by some African PHs) is more powerful than the most hot-rodded 45/70.

My answer to that question is still the same: in typical factory version it is anemic. Whan souped up it can be pretty darn powerful (as you and Mr Garrett point out) but not quite AS powerful as any of the traditional smokeless dangerous-game cartridges.

Does that make it a "bad" cartridge? No, but it will never be as specialized a fodder for African dangerous game as the other cartridges I mentioned.
 
416 Rigby,
I must have misunderstood your post. I apologize if I sounded disrespectful at all.(?) I certainly don't think the 45/70 is as powerfull as any of the bigger cartridges, but I do believe the 45/70 can take down anything in North America. I read in "GUN 2000," that Hal Swiggett took the Handgun Record Moose at 180 yards with a TC/Encore in 45/70 using Garretts 415gr load.
 
416 Rigby:

For the sake of accuracy, let me offer a friendly correction to some of your numbers. Our 45-70 Taylor Knockout Values far exceed the 40 points you list in your comparison as representative of the 45-70. Our 415-grainer generates a TKO value of 50, and our 530-grainer generates a TKO value of 54. Those compare rather well to the TKO value of 41 for the 375 Holland & Holland as it is factory loaded with 300-grain bullets at 2550-fps, and also compare well to your musular 416 with its TKO value of 56 (assuming a 400-grain bullet at 2350-fps).
Indeed, although not firing ballistically aerodynamic bullets, our 45-70 loads produce as big a TKO value at 130-yds as does the 375 Holland & Holland with 300-grain bullets measured at the muzzle!!!

The issue of expanding bullets is an interesting one, since the smaller the diameter of the caliber the greater the need for expansion. Calibers such as the 375 Holland & Holland produce a fairly small wound channel with non-expanding roundnose bullets, and therefore require expansion for quick incapacitation unless a brain shot is taken. Also, with virtually all bolt action guns there are serious problems with using blunt flatnose bullets due to the tendency to hangup during the chambering process, thus the practice of using roundnose solids when great penetration is required. Obviously chambering difficulties are intolerably, especially when the game is dangerous. This is one of the reasons 45-70 lever-guns are desireable, as they can reliably chamber the bluntest of designs due to their cartridge transit characteristics. Roundnose solids are notorious, from all calibers, for their lack of quick incapacitation effect, due to the gentle configuration of their round noses.

Also, expanding bullets provide relatively shallow penetration compared to heavyweight flatnose castings, whether fired from a 375, 416, 458, or any other caliber. Even with the best Trophy bonded core bullets, Nosler Partitions, or Barnes X-Bullets my 416 will only produce less than half the penetration of my 45-70 Marlin with our cast-bullets. That is the great advantage of large calibers with proper non-expanding flatnose bullets with broad meplats, as they provide far more penetration than any expanding bullet, and also provide far more incapacitation effect per unit of penetration than any roundnose solid. They effectively split the difference between under-penetrative expanding bullets and slow to incapacitate roundnose solids. Also, the 45-70 has great inherent diameter (.458") and is thus less needy of expansion.

I am also a big fan of the 416, it is a very good caliber. However, whether it is a 416 or a 375, the kinetic energy figures are high not because of greater killing effect, but because kinetic energy figures are tilted towards those calibers which produce the highest velocities. As a knowledgeable shooter like you knows, the kinetic energy equation squares the velocity but does not square the bullet weight.

I like my 416 and shoot it a lot. Certainly I would not hesitate to shoot the biggest game with it as it is very well proven. And yes, it does offer advantages over the 45-70 when the shooting ranges are beyond 200-yds. However, it will not penetrate anywhere nearly as deeply as the 45-70 with proper hard-cast bullets, unless roundnose solids are used in the 416, and they by nature of their configuration are far less effective on game than proper broad meplated flatnose bullets from the 45-70.

Lastly, if kinetic energy was the only measure of effeciveness, we would all be well served with high velocity calibers. However, if that were the case we would find that the varmint calibers, such as the 223 Remington, were as effecive on big game as a heavily loaded 44 Magnum with hard-cast bullets, or the 257 Roberts to be more effective on heavy game than the 475 Linebaugh since they generate as much or more kinetic energy, but we don't. There are many determiners of effectiveness, bullet performance being primary among them, but kinetic energy is the most misleading of them all. That is why the Taylor Knockout Values are looked to as a better measure of power, by experienced hunters of heavy game.

Best regards, Randy Garrett www.garrettcartridges.com




[This message has been edited by Randy Garrett (edited February 03, 2000).]
 
Trying to get back to the original query, I don't have a Guide Gun, but have had a truncated 18 inch 1895 Marlin since 1981.

1-2. Initially, I used it as a canoe gun primarily for hunting deer and pig in the SE. Used it in the past mostly with factory 405 grain SP's and fairly mild lead bullet reloads since I have 416 Rigbys, 458's and a 460 Wby to serve when medium heavies or heavies are required. Haven't had much use for the new one, since I've returned Stateside since I've simply chosen other pieces for various needs (mostly a 256 M-S in the SE).

3. Several folks make butt cuffs--probably the nicest is the leather one done by MILT SPARKS (Tony Kanaly). You can often find the nylon ones at gunshows with the folks who sell nylon cases and gear. Safariland use to make a pretty high quality nylon one. I don't, BTW, use one except for ready ammo for a firearm around the house or camp. Personally, I think it throws the balance of the saddle gun off and that easy handling one of it's three greatest virtues.

4. A good tang or peep sight (Lyman, Williams FP, or Ashley) is an almost essential accessory. (I hate to scope a traditional lever gun). A good wide foresight--Since I've used up my stock of Redfield Sourdoughs and the Burris copy, I have a similar thing made up by a gunsmith with a wide blade and a brass shotgun bead. Barrel band sling swivel. Decelerator recoil pad with hard inserts at toe and heel.

5. Had my first one stolen and I liked it well enough that I've replaced it after making a long search for a pre-push button with straight stock since I've come back stateside. It's a specialized piece for close range hunting, but I really like it. Prefer my cut down early 1895's to the current pieces with the abominable push button safety and see no need for ports with the loads that interest me. Don't like the checkering on the current piece either.

Am interested in trying the Garrett loads which I've only read about since I've been back stateside. If they perform as they should (though Taylor KO values are as meaningless to me as Foot Pounds or Pounds feet or any other paper ballistic chart) I'd personally feel comfortable with it for anything in North America with loads like these if the range were close enough to justify carrying the piece. When I hunt out west, though, it's with a guide, costs a fair amount of Yankee dollars, and I don't care to limit myself in range when I could use a scoped 338 or 375. In Africa, I wouldn't be interested in carrying the Marlin simply because, again, it's too specialized, it's a hassle to carry more than two firearms overseas, and there are good Mauser actions that have greater deliverable power, with rounds that have a flatter trajectory. Might be nice choice, though, if one were going to do one of those leopard tracking hunts as a specialty thing.

Another set of responses that ought to be worth at least 2 cents.......
 
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