Manual safety on a defensive handgun?

B

Blue Duck357

New member
I just think a user operated safety has no place on a defensive handgun.

I'm sure a lot of us have seen the jewelry store robbery on tape where the bad guy comes in shooting and the owner stands there clicking away with his Walther on safe before throwing it down. I can think of at least three other cases I've read just off the top of my head where a good guy forgets to remove a safety causing problems.

Before the "you've got to practice with it" crowd comes in. I'll note I've now seen two what I assume to be worldclass shooters on ESPN at the Steel Challenge draw, point there gun at the target look confused, lose a few seconds wondering whats going on then suddenly hit there safety off in an epiphany and start shooting. These guys practice more in a week than even the active shooters among us shoot in 6 months and lose it under meer match pressure.

I think this says something about what can happen to a regular firearms buff faced unexpectidly with the first life and death situation of his existense where likely 1 or 2 seconds is going to decide who goes home.

Any thoughts?
 
I've had the same thought before, in a situation where a shady (and obviously armed) individual was scouting out a gun store where I was shooting the breeze with the staff at the time. My carry pistol at the time was a Para-Ordnance P12.45, carried cocked and locked.

I remember that my thoughts were centered around that manual safety when all was well again, and how I did not want to find myself trying to fight it out with a bad guy, only to get killed because I forgot to take the pistol off safe under stress.

Ever since then, I've carried my wheelguns most often, followed by my Glock 19. If I do carry a pistol with a manual safety, like my Beretta 92FS, I leave the safety off. Draw and shoot, no worries about external safeties.

I do carry the 1911 occasionally, but mostly cocked and unlocked with a retention strap between hammer and firing pin. There are still two safeties in place, both firing pin and grip safety, and the retention strap prevents the hammer from reaching the firing pin when the gun is holstered.
 
In the case of a 1911-style pistol, I can hit the target faster and more accurately than with any other handgun.

IMO, the double-action designs do not have as good of a trigger as a tuned 1911-type.

On the 1911, the safety gets swept off in a natural, downward, motion of the thumb as I come up on target.

The choice comes down to the gun that you have trained with and the gun that you feel most comfortable with.

-Mk.IV
 
I do carry the 1911 occasionally, but mostly cocked and unlocked with a retention strap between hammer and firing pin.
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Don't you think you waist about the same amount of time taking the retention strap off the gun as you would if you forgot to take the thumb safety off?Taking the thumb safety off is a natural motion for me when drawing it from my holster.I have never had to draw it to save my life so I don't know if the adrenaline would make me forget.I only hope that my thumb does what it's trained to do.I do feel a little safer knowing that if a BG grabs my handgun from me he may not relaize that there is a manual safety and that will buy me some time.Agreeing with MKIV, I think you should carry what you have trained with and are comfortable carrying.
 
If the gun is designed with a manual safety, you do need to practice with it. Just because you can think of a few people suffering brain farts at the worst possible time doesn't mean that the safety is a bad idea, or to blame. I once saw a guy draw his gun and promtly drop the magazine at an IPSC match. Would that cause you to have misgivings about thumb operated magazine releases?:p Practice will always make the difference.
 
IMHO if a pistol is carried without its safety engaged or designed without a manual safety it needs to have an honest DA first pull. Which leaves out the 1911 among others for unlocked carry and leaves out Glock entirely.
 
I do feel a little safer knowing that if a BG grabs my handgun from me he may not relaize that there is a manual safety and that will buy me some time.
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Freely admit that is the one advantage. I had a client on my caseload for assault and burglary who would have never been on parole if the homeowners gun had not had a safety. He got the gun away from the resident and was holding the gun to the owners head while pulling the trigger repeatidly. Did'nt know about the safety.

I just think the advantage of "harder to operate if it's taken away from you" doesn't out weigh the negatives.

JMHO, wanting to hear from others with different ones or would not have posted it folks :)
 
Blue Duck - I know what you're talking about; I carry a SIG Sauer P220 for much the same reason. Many of my carry guns are point and shoot, but I have never failed to release the safety on the handguns that have them to this point. (Having said that, Murphy will be visiting me very shortly I'm sure.;))
 
The elite?

FBI, Glock Safe Action (among others)

DEA, Double action

FBI HRT, Single Action

Secret Service, Double action

Most millitary elite forces, Double action, though I'm sure world wide there are some carrying the high-power.

Doesn't look like they have it figured out either;)

Seriously, I thought about putting something about this in my the start of this thread. FBI HRT, SeALs etc. are not really looking for a "defensive" handgun in my opinion. They tend to strike first thus are in the combat mindset before the action ever takes place. As opposed to a civillian defensive pistol which will be used from "Gee this ice cream is great" to "Oh S***!" in an instant. I think there may be a difference there.
 
I favor a round in the chamber with manual safety on.

1. If someone grabs your gun, you have an instant to react before THEY figure out where the safety is.

2. When practicing, I ALWAYS move the safety off as I pull the gun from the holster. If I straighten my arm out to fire and the safety is still on, I don't turn it off and shoot. I put it back in the holster and try it again. I seem to be very good now about getting the safety off as I remove the gun from the holster. I think it is worth it. This WILL require practice and I guess if you don't spend a LOT of time doing this drill I suppose it could be a bad thing.

I want to protect myself and others but I am very concerned about any kind of accidental discharge. (I had a relative who snagged a trigger once... gun went off by accident... missed everyone. He had not planned to shoot. -Manual safety would have prevented that.)
 
I sweep the safety off as I bring the gun up on target. I've done it so often that it is now instinctive. I don't have to think about it. No, I don't worry that I might forget it. YMMV.

M1911
 
Why not?

All handguns are defensive. Last time handguns were issued as offensive weapons, cavalry still had a place on the battlefield.

Safeties have a place on pistols, including letting the operator of the gun feel safer. They keep the gun from discharging accidentally.

When confronted with claims that the safety can get in the way of operation during emergencies, just deal with it. It takes 2500 repetitions for the body to develop muscle memory, so make sure you've practiced 2501 times at least.
 
I, too, prefer a pistol without a manual safety. I really like the SIG setup, but the Glock and CZ-75B is not far off.

If a pistol has a manual safety, the down position should be the off position and the trigger shouldn't move if the safety is engaged. I do believe that a manual safety can be trained into relatively easy use under stress.

This is my gripe with the M9; down position is "safety on" and in such, the trigger has a full travel. Seems like a disaster waiting to happen.
 
This may be a stupid question, but how exactly does a gun discharge accidentally? Unless there is a finger on a trigger it cant go bang. (with a modern, well made firearm)
IMHO a manual safety has no place on a handgun, a true safety lies not on steel but between the person weilding the weapons ears.

But hey what do I know?
 
I find the manual safety an absolute if you actually practice with and know your weapon. Many people that I have met in different social climes don't know squat about what they plan to defend themselves with and the best they can come up with is a firearm with no manual (shall we say real safety). But they know it all about self defense eventhough they only shot their weapon once or twice a few years ago when they thought it was cool! I find it extremely troubling that guns such as Glock have the safety?- on the trigger which is what I don't want going off by accident! As much as I like to shoot the Glock I would at least want an extra thought (instinctive) safety - at least which a Steyr has.
 
I carried the same pistol for four years and shot at least once a day, usually three or four times as I worked on large acreage and remote properties where I could shoot any time I wanted. I always carried it with the safety on, and practiced with it that way every time, just like the "practice the way you will use it" folks say, and I was one of them.

One day a guy came at me and I thought that there was someone there so I was ready and thinking and looking. I pulled the gun out, and was outwardly VERY cool. I escourted him to his vehicle, where I got the tag number and called him in by phone with his tag, physical identification, etc. He got in the car and drove off, knowing I would not likely shoot him and that the cops were not going to be quick. I had my gun on him for about four or five minutes and after he left, for the first time, I noticed that my pistol was still on safe. That was the last time I had a safe ON on one of my pistols -- about twenty years ago...

The cops did catch him down the road a night later and he left two of them lying on the road, beaten unconscious and bloody, and drove off from them too.

Luckily I remained cool enough that he didn't attack me as he had the cops and I was able to back him off. If I had NOT handled him conversationally and had been forced to try and shoot him with a gun on safe, I doubt I'd be here now.
 
Honestly, manual safeties are a thing of the past. Manual safety is redundant and not needed if a handgun have a firing/drop safety. I understand that some people are very uncomfortable carrying a gun without a manual safety. I was one of them from a past life.

I carry my handgun cocked and unlock if the gun has a manual safety. The main reason why I carry a Glock 19 as my main CCW is because there is no manual safety.

I prefer handguns with a decocker or a DAO then guns with manual safety.

Modern handguns just don't go bang because they wanted too. The go bang because the moron pull the trigger and claim it to be an AD. Most if not all of these so call AD are in fact ND.
 
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