Mandatory Government Service, Part 2

M

Matt VDW

New member
It so happens that I'm doing some mandatory government service right now, in a manner of speaking. Since the government takes about a third of my annual income in taxes, I figure I'm doing mandatory government service for the first four months of the year even working in the private sector. :D
 
foolish though it may be, I'll try to rebut a few of George's points.

1) again, we are trying (and apparently failing, I can't imagine how we can make it any clearer) to draw the distinction between peacetime compulsory service and volunteer service. volunteer = good, compulsory = bad.

2) as for "ignorance of the subject," this is a Constitutional law issue. if you're a lawyer specializing in Constitutional law, I'll admit ignorance. otherwise, I have as much right to spout off as anyone else.

3) having grown up surrounded by military bases, and currently living within a mile of one now (not to mention having my office on base for a coupla years) I can tell you I'd *much* rather have an all volunteer military. compare what we have now versus 1972. when was the last time an officer got fragged? if you want a professional military, you have to treat the troops (and pay them) as professionals. the Marines are successful because they have "a few good men" not a large random horde.

3) Congress will never repeal the War Powers Act because at any given time, half of the Congress has their boy in office and they don't want to take away the extra power. except for rare occasions, Congress has rarely acted to reduce the power of the federal government. until we get a serious thrid party at the national level, the Republicrats aren't going to change much.

and I'll ditto what MEF said about our volunteers. especially those who choose an MOS which isn't going to provide a cushy civvie job. now *that* is nobility.

and a short followup to my comments concerning Joseph's note about cohesiveness. two causes come to mind; urbanization, and population mobility. no easy solutions.
 
Well Ivanhoe, I've got to go along with everything you said there, except item #3.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>3) having grown up surrounded by military bases, and currently living within a mile of one now (not to mention having my office on base for a coupla years) I can tell you I'd *much* rather have an all volunteer military. compare what we have now versus 1972. when was the last time an officer got fragged? if you want a professional military, you have to treat the troops (and pay them) as professionals. the Marines are successful because they have "a few good men" not a large random horde.
[/quote]

Now, surely, you DO NOT WANT mercenaries as your "standing Army", do you?
Especially considering what the FF had mentioned of the evils of that species of military force, they knew of firsthand...
IMHO.

Or, maybe I don't understand what your saying.

Best Regards,
Don


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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited March 24, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited March 24, 2000).]
 
The US needs a large standing army, because unlike conflicts in the past, tomorrow’s wars are going to come as you are affairs, we will not have 6 months to call up all the reserves and institute a draft. That is one lesson all the country’s foe learnt in the gulf, don’t America 6 months time to mass their forces. Seize or close, ever port facility and airfield in the effected country and you have made an easy build up, into a costly affair that most politicians would not want to stomach. In the gulf, even after six months lead time the National Guard and reserve elements were mostly not combat ready, If I remember right one Mech Brigade at NTC was on the edge of mutiny because they felt the active duty trainers were being too rough with them. There was very little to none ground combat forces from the army NG or reserve committed because of lack of preparedness. The Air Force side had quite a large use of its NG and reserves, because a large chunk of there pilots were professional flyers so there was very little transition training required to get them up to speed. The Marine Corps used its reserves extensively (Btry F 2/14 a reserve artillery unit actually shot more rounds than any active duty Marine battery in the Gulf). This possibly is a result of the Marine Reserves requirement that all its officers spend atleast 3.5 years on active duty prior to their first drill ensuring you have a large pool of relatively trained personnel. I haven’t found any info on the navy’s use of its reserve forces. So it very important that we have the forces in place at the onset of a war, or the war will be over before the drafted or mobilized reserves arrive.

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God truly fights on the side with the best artillery
 
Being equally foolish, I'll try to rebut a few of Ivanhoe's points.
1) The original post by Joseph which started this thread did not mention a thing about the constitutionality of a draft army. The question was how we thought about a draft. Go back and read it. Constitutionality was only brought about by TBeck in the second post and only mentined a few times in the later posts.

2) No I am not a lawyer ( I have higher morals than that) and what does that have to do with this discussion? It was not started as a constitutional question. My reference to "ignorance of the subject" was the statement that compulsory service was slavery. I never felt like a slave while in the military. I was paid, fed, provided with clothing and shelter. I received medical, dental and optical care with no cost to me. Also I was off duty on most holidays, weekends and got 30 days vaction a year. I also received training and work experience that has helped me greatly in my civilian pursuits. I also had the opportunity to leave the military at the end of my term of enlistment. Dosen't sound like slavery to me.
3)As to living around a military base providing someone an insight into military life; I had by-pass surgery a number of years ago, does that make me a surgeon? Jane Fonda testified before congress a few years ago on the plight of the american farm wife. Her qualifications? She played the role of a farm wife in a movie. If you have never served in the military you don't have a clue. The fragging incidents in Viet Nam were not that frequent and happened late in the war when public sentiment for the war was at it lowest. I served with a lot of draftees who were competent, intelligent and good soldiers. There were a hell of a lot more of them than the few who fragged officers. You have been listening to the leftist lies about the military and don't have a true picture of what it was like. Draftees for the most part were as good or better than the volunteeers. They knew they only had to do 2 years and that was it. They had the attitude of do it and do it right then get out. There were more problems with volunteers because many came into the military with preconcieved ideas of what it was like and found out it was not what they expected. Then the realization set in that they had 3 or 4 years yet to go. I heard about a few of those fraggings from people who were there and it wasn't necessarily draftees who did it and it wasn't always privates either. With a draft military you get a cross section of the total population. I have had college graduates working for me as well as 8th grade drop outs from the rural areas. You name the race or religious group and I have worked for, with or supervised them. The military right now is mostly drawing it recruits from the lower economic social levels and most are there for what they can get from the system. The Marines drafted people the same as the other services. They were never been an all volunteer force until the draft ended. They also have not given into the social engineering as have the other services. Any military unit can have high espirit de corps if they have the proper leadership and do not compromise their standards. 4) If enough people voted intelligently and raised enough hell with their elected officials, the War Powers Act would be repealed.
George Dickel
 
I have to say that some of George Dickel's statements make sense. I have served in the all volunteer force,(some more volunteered then others.) When the gulf war started, I suddenly saw dozens of people try to bail out of the 6 years they had signed up for. I must say that I dropped a couple of friends during that time. I cannot forgive someone for shirking their duty like that. I heard so many say they joined for the college money and could not believe my ears. I used the GI bill, and was happy to get it, but I knew I joined the military and they fight. Now I admit, the Navy is not the most dangerous choice. We aren't on the beaches, and don't go in first. I enjoyed the fact that we just lob stuff in the enemy's direction. So that made me question more about how cowardly these people were. When I finally got to my ship, I discovered that some of the guys watching my back were people forced by judges to join the military or spend their lives in jail for some gang incidents. Wonderful new military we have.
 
Donny, I want to make sure I understand the intent of your post. Are you saying the volunteer, professional soldiers are mercenaries? I hope not.

A mercenary is a soldier who will fight under any flag for pay. They have no specific loyalty to the nation they are fighting for. A professional soldier has sworn an oath to defend the nation of which the soldier is a member. The soldier is paid, yes, because they are dedicating part of their time on earth to military service and we here in America believe that people should be compensated for their time and labor. How many soldiers are in it for the money? Damn few. They would be paid much better in the private sector for the time and talent they bring to the task.

Even President Washington recognized the need for professional soldiers to provide an infrastructure of skill for an army. President Washington did not want a large standing army, but he did want enough troops to maintain border outposts and provide for the rapid development of a larger army. Read some of the accounts of the Revolutionary War to find out what General Washington thought of many of the irregulars under his command.

America's military are not mercenaries, they are patriotic men and women willing to sacrifice their time, talent, and even lives to defend this nation. God bless em.
 
I would like to ask again: do you really trust current or subsequent political leaders to be responsible withtheir ability to send you off to kill on their behalf and to possibly die in the process?
 
Oleg, no I don't trust any politician. However, with an all volunteer force which is drawn primarily from one social/economic strata it is a whole lot easier to send them than a force made up of draftees. If more families had sons or daughters in a draft army there would be more resistance to these stupid excursions to the arm pits of the world. Right now it is a small volunteer force who, in most people's view, are gettimg what they asked for when they enlisted. If the sons of CEO's of a number of large corporations were subject to being sent to Somalia along with a bunch of soccer moms kids the pressure that would be brought on the pols would be significant. People pay more attention to what is going on when they have a personal interest in what happens.
 
I would expect fewer political leaders would even try to draft others if they knew that some folks would rather off them than be infantry. My chances of surviving an attempt on Honorable Sen. EvilEnslaveMeister might be better than dealing with human waves at Yalu *and* I'd feel a lot better about the mission.
 
I'm new to this forum, but this topic caught my eye. First off, I don't think we'll see any kind of mandantory government service in this country again. Times are different and most importantly the people are different. Having said that, let me share some things I've learned in 15 years of active Air Force service. In basic training, I learned that, for the most part, I like who we are(the military, and Americans as a whole), and that regular guys and gals from a multitude of backgrounds can pull together as a team and get any job done.
In southern Iraq I learned that a person will fight tooth and nail with any thing readily at hand in defense of his brothers in arms. Reguardless of the political aspects of why he was there in the first place.
In Somalia I learned that any day you're not getting shot at is a good day.
Just last year in the Kosovo conflict I learned that a leadership not committed will infect the whole force with a bad attitude.
During 3 trips to Saudi and 1 to Kuwait I learned that warts and all America and Americans are worth serving.
I wonder if I would have learned these lessons if not for service to my country? Where will the next generation learn these lessons if not from service to their country?


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Tom Whitman
SSgt, USAF
 
This topic has a high potential for misunderstanding, so if something I write looks offensive, check to make sure you did not misunderstand me...

That said: I admire and respect people who keep their fellow soldiers alive at the risk to their own hide and life. I do not, however, think that it is desirable or even particularly good for the country to end up in a situation where you and your rifle are used to keep fellow Americans alive *if* there was a way to avoid getting into that war.

IMHO, sending US troops to keep the peace between people not directly threatening us is sometimes justified provided that *only* volunteers go. That we have had a draft for the VietNam war is a disgrace...if not enough volunteers cared about the fate of South VietNam, than we had no place there to start with. While I can see that the "man on the street" might not grasp the longer-term implications of inaction, I submit that our political leaders do not improve on the rest of use in that respect.

My take on the draft is that it is a breach of the social contract so grave that the most desirable response to it would be a manhunt for the SOB trying to institute the draft. On the practical level, it is far more likely to be effective for personal survival *and* discouraging further attempts to draft/temporarily enslave people than either cooperating or fighting the MPs or whoever else enforces the decrees.
 
Oleg Volk
quote
"That we have had a draft for the VietNam war is a disgrace...if not enough volunteers cared about the fate of South VietNam, than we had no place there to start with"

Every person in the army at that time(1960's) whose serial number started with RA was a volunteer.

The people in the Army DO NOT have a choice in where they will be sent. We were told to go, so we went. End of story.

But I don't think that is what you ment, was it? ;)

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"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
I know what everyone says about statistic, but I saw some in the book “A Better War,” That although the draft in effect during the war, the military still got about 80% of its force from the volunteer pool. Also in the same book when a reporter ask one of the sons of Generals Abrhams, also an army officer, “that it was a same that father didn’t have a better war to fight in since he was such a good officer.” The general’s son retorted “My father thought the Vietnamese people were worth it.”

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God truly fights on the side with the best artillery
 
not only can I not type, now I can't count. I knew getting involved in this discussion wasn't a good idea... ;)

Donny, with respect to the mercenary question, what TBeck said. it's ridiculous for active service military to qualify for AFDC.

STLRN is correct about the need for a substantial standing army in these times, since it only takes hours to transport troops between continents, rather than weeks as was the case when the BoR was ratified. I *would* like to see a constitutional convention to amend the Constitution, so the nation would be forced to consider the many military issues that need addressing. highly unlikely, of course.

STLRN, I wonder how those percentages break down when you look at MOS, rank, and service. I wouldn't be surprised if 11Bs were mostly draftees and USAF, Navy, and USCG personnel were mostly volunteer. Seems like there were a bunch of guys who "volunteered" for the Marines when they got their draft notice.

I make no claim to know what "military life is like". but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to observe the change in Oceanside, CA from the mid-1970s to the late 1980s. still a bit rough, but it was a whole 'nuther story before the "Reagan Revolution." most of what I know about the military comes from my old man (USN, WWII) and uncles (USAF and USMC). some comes from coworkers who were in Vietnam. but the question, as far as I am concerned, is not about how wonderful military life is. it is about the constitutionality of a peacetime draft, the effect on foreign policy, and the economic effects. I really don't care how good a job the military does at parenting.
 
Ivanhoe

The military does not do a good job of parenting, nor should they. Although from where I sit, the parenting the military does do seems to be the only parenting some new recruits have ever seen. Military life is not always so wonderful, (see my prevous post) but that's often what makes it such a valuable experience. We work for what we get while, in many cases, protecting civil and constitutional rights we don't have as military members. It can be a sobering thing to live under the UCMJ. As I stated in my ealier post, I don't think we'll ever see a peace-time draft in this country again.
But,,,that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good idea.

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Tom Whitman
SSgt, USAF
 
Two cents .... <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>All major military actions are caused to be enjoined by politics, even if it is the right thing to do<LI>There is a big, BIG difference between the Reserves and the Guard. I do not approve of them being mentioned in the same sentence, let alone the same breath!</UL>

[This message has been edited by sensop (edited March 25, 2000).]
 
sensop, what's yer beef with respect to Reserves vs NG? I know some people (myself included) are unhappy with the NG being "federalized". or is it a readiness thing?
 
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