Man with no name replica case hardening

E

Elerius

New member
After watching Django Unchained a few times, the Colt Dragoon led me to the 1851 Navy Colt, and not wanting much to do with percussion pistols I tracked down the Man With No Name conversion replica from Cimarron Firearms. It's in 38 Special and still retains the ramrod look, if thats the correct term for it, and was the only one I could find like it.

I barely know anything about case hardening finishes. But I have read throughout the forums occasionally that some case hardening is faked, or painted on, or something like that. Is the finish on this gun legitimate or just made to look like it?

http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/co...sion-38-colt-s-w-special-7-1-2-in-ca9081.html
 
Case hardening is suface hardening (carburizing), first used to reduce wear from moving parts in guns (and other machinery) made from iron rather than steel. Iron can't be hardened by heat treatment like steel can and in the old days, the only way to keep a gun from being worn out by the workings of its own parts was to case harden it. Laterm case coloring was used for cosmetic reasons by gun makers like Colt. You can have case hardening without colors, and you can also have coloring without case hardening. Since the guns made today (except those using brass, of course) are made of steel, there is no need for true case hardening and I understand that most are colored by a heating process (no, not paint).

The only way to know for sure is to expose an out-of-sight part of the frame (by removing the grips or the grip frame) and test it with a file. If it is case hardened, it will be obvious when the file doesn't cut and the file teeth are dulled.

Jim
 
As JamesK points out it is a heat process, in most cases. Doug Turnbull uses a heat process similar to real case hardening. Uberti uses a salt bath type of coloring.

The original Ruger Vaqueros used some type of photographic film process that often simply "washed off" in some cleaning solutions like a decal coming off. Drew a lot of flak for Ruger and is no more.

As to Uberti, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYOJa8ZNxmE

Bob Wright
 
Thanks, I didn't think anyone was going to respond. I guess I'll find out after the fact if the hardening is real but it sounds like its just cosmetic.

The silver inlays are still available. I don't care for the look of them so the one I chose was the plain grip.
 
Elerius, you have a fine sixgun. The Navy (1851 or 1861) balances and point like no other. I had an anti-gun-ish wife once who held mine and liked it so much she said "don't sell this". And when we divorced, I had to sell many things including that. Been building up the collection ever since.

If you are tempted to shoot black powder cartridges, which you really should do for the fun of it, remember two things. (1) The residue will lead to corrosion fast especially in areas with high humidity. There was a reason that the gunfighters hung out in Arizona :p So learn how to take the barrel and cylinder off and how to clean out black powder residue and do the cleaning that same day. (2) This same residue will build up on the rear of the barrel and the front of the cylinder and quickly make it harder and harder to shoot. Be prepared to pull it apart at the range and wipe those areas off.

It is possible to find black powder cartridges thanks to our Cowboy Action Shooting brethren. They will not be very powerful but then, neither were the original .38 cartridges which those conversions fired.

Bart Noir
 
Hawg, how about elaborating on the "nope" comment? Unless the "Man With No Name" is differrent fom the Model P's "CC" treatment, at the very least a heck of a lot better than the Ruger's. Faux or not, and pretty darn good in my 00s example and a quartet of a friend's Ps.
 
real case hardening involves cooking the metal in a bone charcoal fire. The Uberti's, Cimarron, etc. are case 'colored' with a chemical treatment on the steel, similar to bluing, not from a heating process. Real case hardening like Turnbull and others do on some restorations and new guns is very expensive.
 
There is a difference between "case hardening" and "color case hardening."

Case hardening is done by heating the steel, by any means, to a controlled temperature, then quenching in a cooling liquid. That liquid may be cool water, iced water, cool oil, or whatever.

Color case hardening, or simply case coloring, is done by heating in the presence of carbon, and often times cyanide or other chemicals. The degree of heat is very carefully controlled. Case hardening involves laying a thin layer of very hard metal on the surface to prolong life on wear surfaces, such as gear teeth or other surfaces subject to friction. Industrial case hardening leaves usually an overall gray finish.

As has been noted, modern steels are usually through hardened, and don't require the diamond-hard surface. Hence, by careful heating and cooling, as done by Doug Turnbull, beautiful case colors are produced. And, as in the video of Uberti production, case coloring is really a treatment, and is not a fake "case coloring."

Bob Wright
 
kokopelli said:
real case hardening involves cooking the metal in a bone charcoal fire. The Uberti's, Cimarron, etc. are case 'colored' with a chemical treatment on the steel, similar to bluing, not from a heating process. Real case hardening like Turnbull and others do on some restorations and new guns is very expensive.
Click to expand...
But "real" bluing, as used by Colt for the original M1911 pistols, is also done by heating, either in charcoal or in a bath of melted salt crystals. Other bluing processes are controlled rusting.

The line between bluing and case hardening is blurry, at best.
 
Industrial case hardening leaves usually an overall gray finish.
Click to expand...

I would love to get a revolver with that done to it... I think it look awesome would that be bad to have everything super hard?
 
Years and years ago, like the 1950s, fast draw shooters had their cylinders case hardened, to keep from enlongating the cylinder slots. These guns were fired with wax bullet loads. Caution was urged never to use these guns with live ammunition, as the likelihood of a burst cylinder was very present, from a very brittle steel.

The unfortunate thing was that after case hardening, many were re-blued so the case hardening was not evident.

Bob Wright
 
shame. Im not a metallurgist I was hoping that the hardening process gave you the best of both worlds. the tolerance of the softer steel underneath and the hardness where you need it on the surface so it wouldn't become brittle.
 
Color casehardening, as applied in the 19th Century by Colt, Winchester, et al. was not very durable, and colors would easily fade and wear in normal use. Colt, at least in the modern era, applies a clear lacquer over the casehardened frames of Single Action Armys, to help preserve the bright colors. A working sixgun in the wild west would probably lose the coloring pretty quickly. I have a Colt with a 1950s frame, and the colors still look like new, but the gun is shot rarely, and not carried or stored in a leather holster.
 
Fast draw

Bob W
We're these fast draw guns real guns made to fire modern smokeless cartridges, or just cheap replicas made for shooting wax bullets? I can't see any gunmaker using such low quality steel that firing wax bullets would make them so brittle as to become dangerous.
If they were real guns, how could repeated firing wax bullets effect steel?
 
John Barleycorn asked:
Bob W
We're these fast draw guns real guns made to fire modern smokeless cartridges, or just cheap replicas made for shooting wax bullets? I can't see any gunmaker using such low quality steel that firing wax bullets would make them so brittle as to become dangerous.
If they were real guns, how could repeated firing wax bullets effect steel?
Click to expand...

They were indeed real, often times Colts, but then Great Western, and a few highly modified Ruger Blackhawks.

These guns with case hardened cylinders could be fired from now on with wax bullet loads. But the problem arose when the gun might have been passed on to another owner. If he then fired full power factory ammunition in the gun, burst cylinders could result.


As to current quick draw practice, the guns start out as real, but then a plethora of changes take place. Some have an aluminum barrel and ejector assembly installed, to cut weight to a minimum. Some cylinders have .45 caliber throats at the front of the cylinder and chambered for .22 r.f. blanks at the rear of the cylinder. The blank cartridge propels the wax glob.

Those Rugers were Three Screw model Blackhawks. The rear sight was removed, the frame welded up and machined to mimic the Colt Single Action, and an awkward looking big-spur hammer installed.

I just had to try fanning my Ruger Blackhawk when I first got it, being young and foolish. Learned then what that rear sight can do to the heel of my hand!

Bob Wright
 
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