Man Uses AK Pistol in Gas Station Shootout

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Bartholomew Roberts

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http://www.11alive.com/mb/news/crim...an-shot-during-gas-station-shootout/305904792

A driver stopped to get gas at an Atlanta gas station. After paying for his gas, he was confronted outside the station by another man. The two continued to have words until the driver returned to his vehicle. At that point, the man flashed a gun in his waistband to intimidate the driver. The driver responded by producing an AK pistol. The resulting car-length shootout led to the passenger being shot in the shoulder and the driver's vehicle taking hits. The whole thing was captured on the gas station's surveillance video and is at the link.

I thought this incident would be food for discussion since it highlights a) the danger in displaying a firearm to gain compliance, 2) the difficulty in making good hits even at relatively short distances in a dynamic situation, and 3) your reponsibility for every round (the driver was cranking off AK rounds at the escaping man with a casual regard for such issues).
 
This reminds me of the countless videos I have seen taken from the dashboard of a police vehicle, recording a criminal firing at the officer, and the officer firing at the criminal, all at very close range and without either person landing a hit. I know that part of the issue is that most law enforcement officers are not trained shooters, only qualifying at static ranges with large targets and very close distances, but those incidents, like this one, do point out that a shooting incident is not as portrayed in Hollywood with one shot kills in the midst of chaos.
 
I sold an AK pistol last year, cool idea, but worthless unless your making a gangster movie.

"As seen on TV" they are notoriously inaccurate, in partial due to very poor balance and weight (30 rounds of 7.62x39 are downright too heavy for a 1 handed grip.)

It also appeared the shooter was not familiar with the action of the weapon, couldn't decide on 1 or 2 hand grip, and failed to maintain the control required for accurate shot placement.

I expect he would have been much better off shooting-wise had he chosen a Glock 19 and practiced with it. Luckily for the victim he did not.

(Or maybe Wymark is right, rotating the gun 90 degrees may have helped. )

Luckily, no one died in the exchange.
 
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AK pistols are not known for their accuracy. Not "Tec-9" bad but right up there. Bossip indicates that this was most likely a shootout over drugs explaining why AK shooter left the scene right after as well. The police did find him and talk to him. What he said has not been disclosed.

Most street dealers don't spend time on marksmanship. Guns are used quite often for intimidation and to gain compliance. When used to kill someone it is most often an ambush, at close range with multiple attackers.

Many guns that dealers carry are not loaded or not even working. Clearly they were both loaded and working here.
 
Back in the 80s, the SAS and SEALs used to use MP5s stockless or with the stock collapsed and push out on the sling to stabilize the MP5. That technique works pretty well with rifle-caliber semi-auto pistols - especially if you have a red dot.

Otherwise you run into the big problem with 3-4lb 25" pistols - they are hard to stabilize and hard to bring your eye to the sight in a consistent, repeatable manner.
 
I use a SPS and red dot mounted well forward on my AR pistol. Works like a charm inside of 100m which is as far as I want to shoot 300BO anyway.
 
The biggest problem with the AK pistol is that he couldn't carry it on him. He had to reach in the car go get it - I'm surprised he retrieved it as fast as he did.

The video was confusing. What was the 2nd passenger doing inside the store and why did he come out when he did. What was the "red" guy doing in the store and why was he sprinting away from the store, or toward another vehicle?

It also shows that carrying a pistol tucked in your waistband wasn't very accessible. The guy with the Ak-pistol got off the first few shots, albeit missing his target.

The woman took a hit, it looks like, through the windshield.
 
vito said:
I know that part of the issue is that most law enforcement officers are not trained shooters, only qualifying at static ranges with large targets and very close distances, but those incidents, like this one, do point out that a shooting incident is not as portrayed in Hollywood with one shot kills in the midst of chaos.
Click to expand...
I often think it has less to do with training than with a person's mental state while staring imminent death in the face. It's very hard to replicate that type of stress in a training exercise.

Some PD's do force-on-force training using paintball guns, but the problem is that the participants know it's non-lethal. It replicates the mechanics of a firefight, but not necessarily the mental pressure.

Re: Skans' post... here are my guesses.
  • The gunman with the handgun in his waistband (#1) wasn't really expecting gunman #2 to shoot back. He thought that #2 was opening his car door to drive away. This is indeed a good example of why NOT to flash a gun merely as a casual threat. :eek:
  • Gunman #2 apparently had some sort of quick-draw holster under the driver's-side dash.
  • The passenger in the store came out to check on the female passenger in the car.
  • Red Guy panicked and was simply trying to save his own skin.
 
"most LEO's are not trained shooters"

After spending thousands of hours as a trainer, and attending a large academy as a trainee in the front of my career, and many hundreds of hours of firearms training through the length of my carreer, I have to take exception to that remark. It is broad, generalized, and grossly inaccurate. It paints the rank and file LEO as a clutz. In fact, more correctly, I'd have to say that most gun owners are not trained as shooters. The video in question proves that.

Quantitatively and cost wise, firearms training, the weapons, ammo and facilities needed for same, are likely one of the biggest expenses at police academy's and for departments large and small. (vehicles are right up there too, if anything, LEO's need more wheel time) And though static qualification courses are still the administrative standard, many, perhaps if not most, agencies now have dynamic progressive training, , to include reactive targets. low light, and such force on force training as Simmunitions. Gone are the old days of simply punching paper. Yes, quals are used as a measure of proficiency, but they are not the only shooting that is occurring. Certainly there are some small departments that are not that progressive, but as a whole, police firearms training has come a long way from the "qualification only days" and black and white B-27 targets. (re "with large targets)

Other issues with that comment. Police shoot at close range, because the handgun is a close range weapon and that is where the fights take place. Many police shootings look more like a grappling match. What is hard to teach is tactics. And keeping good tactics, day to day, contact after contact, under a myriad of conditions and circumstances is hard to do, and can cause calamity. Being polite, calm and professional, and ready to fight anyone you meet, is a near, if not impossible task. Most police shootings are reactive. You start behind the curve, at a disadvantage, for any number of reasons, some of which are far beyond your control, and hope your skills and the assailants lack of it, let you win.

There are indeed many officers that are not good shots, or could be better shots, due to indifference, lack of initiative, physical limitations (eyesight or injury as examples) COST, etc. The rank and file LEO may not be a multi-class graduate of Gunsite, a Navy Seal, or the local IDPA shark, but they are far from "untrained"
 
I get grumpy when I see "training" thrown around after gunfights in which no one is injured.

Gun fights are chaotic to say the least. I shot expert in Basic, best shooter in the BN, am an NRA instructor, shot rifle and shotgun competitively in high school and college and have both shooting merit badges, and I highly doubt if the first three magazine I ran through my M-4A1 hit anyone during my first action in Iraq.
 
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