Mall Carry, Central NY

D

deltaroc

Inactive
Hi Group,

I have posted this same question on THR as well as here......

I have a NYS Pistol Permit which allows me to carry concealed anywhere in NYS where permissible by law.....except for New York City. So here is my question, since I have been issued a concealed and carry pistol permit by the licensing officer in my county, the process is based totally on New York State Penal Law, which is good throughout the state can I carry in a mall that has a policy that reads:

"No Weapons Allowed
The possession of any weapon, unless authorized by local, state, or federal statute, is prohibited."

I would assume I can carry in this particular mall because I am authorized by a state statute.

Thoughts?????

Thanks,

Delta
 
Legally you should be ok. You meet the state requirements which USUALLY put you clear of local laws, but not always. ex in kansas, concealed or open carry is legal (with proper permit) statewide but not in certain cities (like wichita).
where i am some local businesses have pictures of a handgun with big red circle and slash on front door. not backed up by state law.
bottom line is make sure you are in compliance with state AND local regs before you carry somewhere for the first time
jmho
tom
 
Typically at least in NH, it really doesn't matter if a business has a posted sign or not. You are doing nothing illegal by entering a business that has posted a sign of 'no weapons.' The Rockingham Mall in NH I believe had a sign posted at one time, the most they can do if you are carrying and you are seen is ask you to leave. It would then become a tresspassing issue if you didn't.

unless authorized by local, state, or federal statute, is prohibited
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I would think that in this instance you are authorizedby local, state or federal. I know again at least in NH, the fact that you can legally carry a concealed firearm trumps local business policies. MA and NY gun laws are so wacky that there may be some bizarre law that would prevent it. That's why I moved to NH :D
 
Probably depends on the state, cause from my CCW class in NC, they said that you can't carry if the business has the sign up. If the sign just says no CC, then you can carry open; but if it says no weapons, then CC or open is a no-no. But I do wonder if that will stand up--haven't had the chance to actually "read" the law itself, but rather a booklet and the class.
 
This brings up the question: when you have to go somewhere that's no carry, what do you do? I leave my sidearm in the car but take out the mag and clear the pipe and take the mag and chamber round with me like a detatchable stereo.
 
Any idea when they changed the law?

I lived in New York state until the late 70s, and at that time the state pistol permit was only for posession and OPEN carry outside of NYC. There was no concealed carry legal for anyone who was not a LEO.

I wonder when they changed that law, to allow concealed carry for civilians?

You live there now, and should know better than I what the laws are today, but I am surprised that they allow concealed carry now, when they didn't then. Are you any kind of LEO?, to have an exception, or have they actually changed the law?

As far as the signs stating no weapons except as authorized by law, I believe they refer to the law covering police (and certain govt agencies), both allowing them (and requiring them) to be armed. Police can, and do carry their guns in "gun free zones" such as schools and public buildings, but ordinary citizens cannot. I think the mall signs are the same sort of thing. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. Many states have in their laws the ability of property owners to prohibit private carry on their property, if they post signs so stating, and this is what the mall owners have done.
 
The best thing to do would be to contact your local Attorney General's Office and ask them that very same question. If you can't call, an email will work just as well. Our AG here in Ohio is very good about answering emails concerning CC questions.
 
44Amp,

Thought you may be interested in some information regarding full carry licenses in New York. Here is the link to the Oneida County pistol permit office.

http://www.oneidacounty.org/oneidacty/gov/dept/pistolpermits/applinfo.htm

I have no idea when the law you speak of changed. From my memory, I do not remember anything else. Please see Article 400 of the NYS Penal Law. http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/menugetf.cgi?COMMONQUERY=LAWS

According to NYS Penal Code, which I assume is a statute (law), my permit was granted. This is why I was wondering if my NYS granted pistol permit satisfied the sign at the mall.
 
All Federal Buildings and they are clearly marked before entering, Schools and School Property without the permission of local authorities and most Courts which you will have to surrender before entering are the only off limit places in NYS.
Of course your permit is not valid in NYC unless it was issued there or it has been approved by the police commissioner in that city.

All feel good signs do not apply to a licensed ccw in NYS. You are free to carry anywhere as long as you are cc.

I was there through all the 70's, it has always been that way.

kenny b
 
To my way of legal thinking (and I'm a lawyer, not that it takes any great in-depth analysis to understand this of course, but.....), quite clearly, you would prevail in court if charged - clearly, a state STATUTE authorizes your carry, so you are well outside of the trespass rule created by the sign. Doesn't mean that an arresting officer will agree with you or me, but if pressed in court, that would be the legal result, 99.5% chance.
 
Kenny,

I have been searching for the information you provided on the NYS laws website for a long time and can not find anything dealing with:

"All feel good signs do not apply to a licensed ccw in NYS. You are free to carry anywhere as long as you are cc."

Where can I find this information? Dont take me wrong, I am not disagreeing with you, however, I would like to read it.

Thanks
 
After wading through the legalese on the provided link

Until my head hurt, I see there have indeed been some changes to the law since I lived there. Concealed carry, expiration dates for permits, and proof of safety training, among others.

I do remember having to provide 5 sets of fingerprints, 4 photographs, and three character references. The final issueing authority was a county judge. And there was no age restriction. While generally assumed to be 21, it was technically at the judge's discretion. I obtained my permit at age 18. So did my brother when he reached that age.

The reason we did this was because a few years before both Mom & Dad were in a car wreck, and while they did survive (with injuries), we learned that had Dad died, his pistols would have to be surrendered, as there was no other permit holder in the household. Mom applied for hers right away, and so we did also at age 18. My permit listed all Mom & Dad's pistols, by maker, caliber, serial#, and barrel length.

I have not lived in NY for nearly 30 years, and have enjoyed my hobby is a state with far fewer legal restictions. You have my sympathy for what you have to put up with. Thank you for the links.
 
I do remember having to provide 5 sets of fingerprints, 4 photographs, and three character references.
Click to expand...

Remember only black ink!

deltaroc

I don't believe your going to find what you’re looking for. In the 70's most permits were through your county permit office and some of the larger county office's started adding restrictions. I believe this started in Erie County. They started adding target and hunting and business to permits issued in that county because of the larger population and a way to regulate carry, you had to have a reason to apply for a full carry permit, such as carrying large amounts of money for you job etc. and few other county's followed. Even though at that time NYS only recognized two state permits on the books, carry and premise, and the restrictions were meaningless in other counties, they only recognized it as a full carry permit. This is recognized by the letter before you permit number on your license. Notice you have a C that stands for carry.

Around 1980-81 SS Court Judge Penny Wolfgang deemed all added restrictions by the county's null and void due to them being illegal. Anyone at that time could get a new clean permit without added restrictions and new permits were issued without restrictions, But that again was short lived as the county's found a way around the judges decision. Now it's acceptable in the state to add restrictions at the county level, again the restrictions are for that county, another county or NYS Trooper would not recognize them as they only abide by the state issued permit. Sound confusing- it is and that’s what they want. Therefore I don't believe you can find your answer in black and white, but the state law will prevail.

My information has been gathered over the last 30 years being a permit holder,15 business-15 unrestricted, talking to Judges and LEO's at the state level, the local level seems impossible to get 2 people out of the same office to agree on the same definition of anything. They seem to make it up as they go.

kenny b
 
Kenny,

Great post, thanks a lot.

I sent an email to the atty. general of nys to try and find out if there is any sort of regulation, law or statute that store owners need to abide by to "outlaw" weapons in their establishments. I know some states require a "no gun" sign to meet certain criteria and was wondering if New York was the same.

We shall see if I get an answer.

Again, thanks for the great post.......PS I even dug out my permit from my wallet to see if there was a "C" at the start of the id number....sure enough.......

Deltaroc
 
I'm not sure that a place of business, which is a public place, can override state law with their no weapons policy. I would tend to think that if you are approved by the state for concealed carry, that would include all public places unless restricted by the state, ie bars, federal buildings, schools, detention facilities, etc.
 
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