I plan to purchase either a Makarov or a CZ-52 in the near future. I can buy either one for the same price so this isn't a consideration. It will be carried while deer hunting and is not intended for self defense but rather for accuracy and target shooting. If you could only have one of these handguns, which would you choose and why?
Makarov or CZ-52?
- Thread starter Hammy
- Start date
Walt Sherrill
New member
I'd go the Makarov route -- and spend just a bit more to get an East German one...
The EG Maks are beautifully made, durable as hell, a joy to shoot, and the ammo can be had for a reasonable price from a number of sources.
The CZ-52s, on the other hand, despite their reputation for great power, aren't really that powerful (their main claim to fame is a pointed bullet which penetrates well, and a cartridge which causes a lot of flash and noise -- most of which takes place because it isn't used to push the bullet.
The guns are of questionable durability -- many, many rebuilds in their histories, despite the fact that they never really saw action.
They are fun guns, but I think the Maks are better.
The EG Maks are beautifully made, durable as hell, a joy to shoot, and the ammo can be had for a reasonable price from a number of sources.
The CZ-52s, on the other hand, despite their reputation for great power, aren't really that powerful (their main claim to fame is a pointed bullet which penetrates well, and a cartridge which causes a lot of flash and noise -- most of which takes place because it isn't used to push the bullet.
The guns are of questionable durability -- many, many rebuilds in their histories, despite the fact that they never really saw action.
They are fun guns, but I think the Maks are better.
I can't help but respond to this one, sorry:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The CZ-52s, on the other hand, despite their reputation for great power, aren't really that
powerful (their main claim to fame is a pointed bullet which penetrates well, and a cartridge
which causes a lot of flash and noise -- most of which takes place because it isn't used to push
the bullet. [/quote]
Granted, the 7.62x25 is a flame thrower and it isn't quiet. But to say that a 110 grain bullet coming out of the gates in excess of 1700 fps is "not hot" then your point of view must be from behind a .460 Roland or one of those Desert Eagle .357 Mag or .44 Mag autos. While ammo isn't available at every gun shop, www.aimsurplus.com has it very reasonably priced and the S&B stuff they sell is quite reloadable. I'm not knocking the Maks ... don't have one, but they look nice. I really like the CZ-52 though. One last shot ... you don't see the vest manufacturers bragging about being able to stop a 9mm or a .45ACP round with a level IIIA vest ... just the 7.62x25.
Just my two cents FWIW,
Bill
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The CZ-52s, on the other hand, despite their reputation for great power, aren't really that
powerful (their main claim to fame is a pointed bullet which penetrates well, and a cartridge
which causes a lot of flash and noise -- most of which takes place because it isn't used to push
the bullet. [/quote]
Granted, the 7.62x25 is a flame thrower and it isn't quiet. But to say that a 110 grain bullet coming out of the gates in excess of 1700 fps is "not hot" then your point of view must be from behind a .460 Roland or one of those Desert Eagle .357 Mag or .44 Mag autos. While ammo isn't available at every gun shop, www.aimsurplus.com has it very reasonably priced and the S&B stuff they sell is quite reloadable. I'm not knocking the Maks ... don't have one, but they look nice. I really like the CZ-52 though. One last shot ... you don't see the vest manufacturers bragging about being able to stop a 9mm or a .45ACP round with a level IIIA vest ... just the 7.62x25.
Just my two cents FWIW,
Bill
I'd go the Mak route, also. I don't own one (yet), but the ammo seems easier to get.
I do, however own a CZ-52 and I think it is a great gun. Strong and accurate, and great reliability in feeding due to the bottleneck cartridge.
------------------
"Any world that I'm welcome to.....Is better than the one I come from"
I do, however own a CZ-52 and I think it is a great gun. Strong and accurate, and great reliability in feeding due to the bottleneck cartridge.
------------------
"Any world that I'm welcome to.....Is better than the one I come from"
Destructo6
New member
If it's a one or the other proposition (I have both), definately go with a good Mak (E.German or surplus Bulgarian).
The ergonomics one the CZ-52 are terrible. The grip angle is wrong, the trigger bites your finger with every shot, and the safety is easiest to manipulate with your support hand. You'll have to do some learning/relearning to shoot this thing well.
The Mak is similar, in most respects, to other pistols. Similar grip angle, control locations, trigger, and so forth. The only odditiy is the mag release and that's not too bad (the CZ's release really sucks).
The ergonomics one the CZ-52 are terrible. The grip angle is wrong, the trigger bites your finger with every shot, and the safety is easiest to manipulate with your support hand. You'll have to do some learning/relearning to shoot this thing well.
The Mak is similar, in most respects, to other pistols. Similar grip angle, control locations, trigger, and so forth. The only odditiy is the mag release and that's not too bad (the CZ's release really sucks).
Jody Hudson
New member
OK folks, here it seems is a good place to ask...
I have several Makarovs and some other pistols all of which I hit well with.
I like the IDEA of the CZ-52 and have tried two of them. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with them; ALL the shots were wild flyers with no semblance of a pattern to the misses. After two guns I gave up and decided that they just were not accurate. NOW I see here that some of you have found them to be accurate. ???????
I have found most of the Maks to be VERY accurate and of course reliable, etc. I consider them the finest of all pistols (I know not everyone agrees with me on this) and most owners consider them to be exceptional.
Sooooo... When I am customarily able to outshoot most folks at the range with any other pistol -- WHY was I not able to even hit the target with the CZ-52??? Any similar experience out there???
AND thus for me ONLY the Makarov is the choice when asked between the two. Of course when asked to judge between ANY pistol and a Makarov, regardless of price, I vote Makarov.
Jody
------------------
Talk is cheap; Free Speech is NOT.
I have several Makarovs and some other pistols all of which I hit well with.
I like the IDEA of the CZ-52 and have tried two of them. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with them; ALL the shots were wild flyers with no semblance of a pattern to the misses. After two guns I gave up and decided that they just were not accurate. NOW I see here that some of you have found them to be accurate. ???????
I have found most of the Maks to be VERY accurate and of course reliable, etc. I consider them the finest of all pistols (I know not everyone agrees with me on this) and most owners consider them to be exceptional.
Sooooo... When I am customarily able to outshoot most folks at the range with any other pistol -- WHY was I not able to even hit the target with the CZ-52??? Any similar experience out there???
AND thus for me ONLY the Makarov is the choice when asked between the two. Of course when asked to judge between ANY pistol and a Makarov, regardless of price, I vote Makarov.
Jody
------------------
Talk is cheap; Free Speech is NOT.
all i have to say is my old 52 can keep a 3 inch group at 25 yards,pointed bullets? show me,all i found was hardball and soft points and magsafes for defense.oh yeah ive also punched thru an old second chance kevlar vest with both hardplates installed,offed completly a kawasaki moter that was dead cracking the crank in two,went thru a bathtub side and blowing a chunk out of the other side,try this with a measly 9x19 mak,aint happening,for parts call on karl at http://www.makarov.com or the message board theyre for real info,heres another czech arms
forum with poeple who can also help you as well,oh and heres some info in general with a pic of one of my cz's at the bottom......
ammo links http://www.owlnet.com/quality/index.html.
more ammo below.......... http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/default.asphttp://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/default.asp
weapons and ammo links http://www.centuryarms.com/ http://www.empirearms.com/ http://www.jgsales.com/
Centerfire Systems,
Inc(1-800-950-1231)......7.62x25 S&B
non-corrosive boxer primed in quantities of 1000, 500 or 50 rounds.
RTC Sports, Inc (1-800-686-7824).....7.62x25 Sellier&Bellot non-corrosive boxer primed in quantities of 1000, 500, or 100 rounds.
Gibbs Rifle Company (304)262-1651.....7.62x25 Czech lacquered steel cases in 2,280 rounds per case quantity.
need to call the cz company? here you go.....
CZ-USA P.O.
Box 171073 Kansas City, Kansas 66117-0073 Phone: (913) 321 1811 or (800) 955-4486 Fax (913)
321 2251 e-mail: czusa@gvi.net Staff names: Alice, Joseph, and Robert
info on manufacturer.
The CZ-52 was a short recoil roller locked pistol firing the 7.62mm (m-4 cartridge. It was designed by Jan Kratochvil and manufactured by Presne Strojirentsvi, Uhersky Brod, in Moravia. It carried the factory code "rid."(mine is a rid model! ) )
(Other post-WWII codes of this factory were "AYM," "tgf," and "she."
None of these codes were found on the CZ-52 pistols.) The Czech Army adopted the CZ-52 on May 17, 1952.
BARREL CONVERSIONS
ok the 2 numerals in the side of the frame denotes the year built:ie:52-55 etc means.the nid or rid means its a brno plant in czeck built pistol.the t on the barrel chamber means its been proofed and tested.crossed swords denotes service pistol.if your going to get a 9mm barrel ,do it,easy to replace ,just follow directions .first remove the slide,now find a drill bit to fit the hole on lock block,make sure to push both rollers in towards the middle and then pullit forward to muzzle and up you now can slide the barrel out.IF you get the 9x19 barrel theyre are some modifacations you must make to the extractor ;namely removing it from slide and then rounding the lower corner along the exposed length so it slides over the rim of the rd. ,thats it.done with mods.reinstall the extractor .the 9x19 or 9x18 rounds are short in the magazine well with the caliber conversion barrel but the 147 gr.will work well in the cz as well as the 115 gr. 9mm ammo.so dont freak out when you stack the mag up and see a short round in a big mag space,they feed ok in mine no sweat.it works .i chose the 9x19 barrel purely out of availability and a wider range of loads given.some guys have made mag followers and blocked theyre mag walls with a 3\16th
strip but theyres no need for that.keep in mind that now adays the 9x19 nato is the
cheapest to get in all the different 9 sizes for the cz.what i want is a barrel in 38 acp
colt for my cz52!..............
MOST IMPORTANT STAMPING MARK OF ALL
look for a Z stamping on the trigger gaurd.this means its had the new hammer decocker safety installed ,if not and its a century arms piece ,send it to them after a phone call they will do the fix and send back for free. theyre have been reports of cz's going off when lowering hammer with decocker method.its on either side of the trigger gaurd near grip. for you tokarev shooters of the t33 heres a 9mm barrel conversion from sks man 40$!!!!!
www.sksman.com/access/tokarev.html
this is from mikes site.....
After WWII the Czechoslovakian Military was looking for a first class military sidearm. Trials were held beginning in 1948, and several prototypes were tested including some in 9mm parabellum. None of the early prototypes were found to be acceptable and in 1950 Ceska Zbrojovka (Bohemian Arms Factory) concentrated it's efforts on a design based on the Russian 7.62x25mm caliber.
Initial tests in 1951 on this design were also unsatisfactory. An improved pistol was tested again in early 1952 and was adopted by the Czech Armed Forces in May of 1952 as the Model 52 (or CZ- 52). The contract for the Model 52 began in 1952 and was completed in 1954. Exact quantities produced are unknown but estimated at between 200,000 and 220,000 pistols. The Model 52 employs a roller locking system thought to have been inspired by the German MG-42 machine gun. Roller locking designs have also been used successfully for years on many Heckler and Koch rifles but are seldom seen on pistols. The Model 52 has a three position frame
mounted safety lever. In the downward position a red dot is visible and the pistol is ready to fire. In
the middle position the safety blocks the trigger bar and engages the hammer rebound notch. In this "safed" position the pistol can be carried cocked & locked or safely unloaded. Pushing the lever all the way up decocks the pistol. The magazine is held in place by a lever at the bottom rear of the magazine well. There is no magazine safety. Originally manufactured with a nice light grey parkerized finish many CZ-52's can be found on the surplus market with a dark blue (hot dipped)finish. These pistols were part of a refurbishment program in the late 70's and can also be identified by the letters "VOZ" plus the year of re-work stamped above the trigger. The CZ-52 is a great shooter, and right now there is an abundance of surplus ammo available. Norinco makes a steel case non-corrosive (so they say) commercial ammo. I found it to be a bit anemic, and I have heard that steel cases are tough on extractors. I haven't tried the Chinese
military surplus but I doubt that it's much different than the commercial stuff. My favorites are the Bulgarian and Polish surplus. The lots that I've had were brass case, very clean, surefire and cycled my pistols flawlessly. The Czech ammo is also available and it's loaded much hotter than
the rest. It's lots of fun and the CZ-52 was designed around this load but it's still a little disconcerting to see your pistol turn into a flame belching hand cannon. I don't feed my CZ's a steady diet of the Czech ammo for fear of excessive wear. Virtually all the surplus in 7.62x25 is corrosive, but don't turn your nose up at corrosive ammo like many people I talk to at gun shows do. It's priced right, and if you clean your gun shortly after shooting it will be fine. I pull the barrel out and run it under hot water while pushing a soapy brush through it. After I'm done the warm barrel dries quickly and I lightly oil it inside and out. The CZ-52 is a typical piece of Czech quality workmanship, it's fun to shoot, and right now they are
plentiful and inexpensive. If you don't get one now you may wish you had once they all disappear. NOTE---Be careful of the firing pin. It's cast steel and will last indefinitely under normal usage but if
subjected to repeated dry firing may break prematurely.
forum with poeple who can also help you as well,oh and heres some info in general with a pic of one of my cz's at the bottom......
ammo links http://www.owlnet.com/quality/index.html.
more ammo below.......... http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/default.asphttp://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/default.asp
weapons and ammo links http://www.centuryarms.com/ http://www.empirearms.com/ http://www.jgsales.com/
Centerfire Systems,
Inc(1-800-950-1231)......7.62x25 S&B
non-corrosive boxer primed in quantities of 1000, 500 or 50 rounds.
RTC Sports, Inc (1-800-686-7824).....7.62x25 Sellier&Bellot non-corrosive boxer primed in quantities of 1000, 500, or 100 rounds.
Gibbs Rifle Company (304)262-1651.....7.62x25 Czech lacquered steel cases in 2,280 rounds per case quantity.
need to call the cz company? here you go.....
CZ-USA P.O.
Box 171073 Kansas City, Kansas 66117-0073 Phone: (913) 321 1811 or (800) 955-4486 Fax (913)
321 2251 e-mail: czusa@gvi.net Staff names: Alice, Joseph, and Robert
info on manufacturer.
The CZ-52 was a short recoil roller locked pistol firing the 7.62mm (m-4 cartridge. It was designed by Jan Kratochvil and manufactured by Presne Strojirentsvi, Uhersky Brod, in Moravia. It carried the factory code "rid."(mine is a rid model! ) )
(Other post-WWII codes of this factory were "AYM," "tgf," and "she."
None of these codes were found on the CZ-52 pistols.) The Czech Army adopted the CZ-52 on May 17, 1952.
BARREL CONVERSIONS
ok the 2 numerals in the side of the frame denotes the year built:ie:52-55 etc means.the nid or rid means its a brno plant in czeck built pistol.the t on the barrel chamber means its been proofed and tested.crossed swords denotes service pistol.if your going to get a 9mm barrel ,do it,easy to replace ,just follow directions .first remove the slide,now find a drill bit to fit the hole on lock block,make sure to push both rollers in towards the middle and then pullit forward to muzzle and up you now can slide the barrel out.IF you get the 9x19 barrel theyre are some modifacations you must make to the extractor ;namely removing it from slide and then rounding the lower corner along the exposed length so it slides over the rim of the rd. ,thats it.done with mods.reinstall the extractor .the 9x19 or 9x18 rounds are short in the magazine well with the caliber conversion barrel but the 147 gr.will work well in the cz as well as the 115 gr. 9mm ammo.so dont freak out when you stack the mag up and see a short round in a big mag space,they feed ok in mine no sweat.it works .i chose the 9x19 barrel purely out of availability and a wider range of loads given.some guys have made mag followers and blocked theyre mag walls with a 3\16th
strip but theyres no need for that.keep in mind that now adays the 9x19 nato is the
cheapest to get in all the different 9 sizes for the cz.what i want is a barrel in 38 acp
colt for my cz52!..............
MOST IMPORTANT STAMPING MARK OF ALL
look for a Z stamping on the trigger gaurd.this means its had the new hammer decocker safety installed ,if not and its a century arms piece ,send it to them after a phone call they will do the fix and send back for free. theyre have been reports of cz's going off when lowering hammer with decocker method.its on either side of the trigger gaurd near grip. for you tokarev shooters of the t33 heres a 9mm barrel conversion from sks man 40$!!!!!
www.sksman.com/access/tokarev.html
this is from mikes site.....
After WWII the Czechoslovakian Military was looking for a first class military sidearm. Trials were held beginning in 1948, and several prototypes were tested including some in 9mm parabellum. None of the early prototypes were found to be acceptable and in 1950 Ceska Zbrojovka (Bohemian Arms Factory) concentrated it's efforts on a design based on the Russian 7.62x25mm caliber.
Initial tests in 1951 on this design were also unsatisfactory. An improved pistol was tested again in early 1952 and was adopted by the Czech Armed Forces in May of 1952 as the Model 52 (or CZ- 52). The contract for the Model 52 began in 1952 and was completed in 1954. Exact quantities produced are unknown but estimated at between 200,000 and 220,000 pistols. The Model 52 employs a roller locking system thought to have been inspired by the German MG-42 machine gun. Roller locking designs have also been used successfully for years on many Heckler and Koch rifles but are seldom seen on pistols. The Model 52 has a three position frame
mounted safety lever. In the downward position a red dot is visible and the pistol is ready to fire. In
the middle position the safety blocks the trigger bar and engages the hammer rebound notch. In this "safed" position the pistol can be carried cocked & locked or safely unloaded. Pushing the lever all the way up decocks the pistol. The magazine is held in place by a lever at the bottom rear of the magazine well. There is no magazine safety. Originally manufactured with a nice light grey parkerized finish many CZ-52's can be found on the surplus market with a dark blue (hot dipped)finish. These pistols were part of a refurbishment program in the late 70's and can also be identified by the letters "VOZ" plus the year of re-work stamped above the trigger. The CZ-52 is a great shooter, and right now there is an abundance of surplus ammo available. Norinco makes a steel case non-corrosive (so they say) commercial ammo. I found it to be a bit anemic, and I have heard that steel cases are tough on extractors. I haven't tried the Chinese
military surplus but I doubt that it's much different than the commercial stuff. My favorites are the Bulgarian and Polish surplus. The lots that I've had were brass case, very clean, surefire and cycled my pistols flawlessly. The Czech ammo is also available and it's loaded much hotter than
the rest. It's lots of fun and the CZ-52 was designed around this load but it's still a little disconcerting to see your pistol turn into a flame belching hand cannon. I don't feed my CZ's a steady diet of the Czech ammo for fear of excessive wear. Virtually all the surplus in 7.62x25 is corrosive, but don't turn your nose up at corrosive ammo like many people I talk to at gun shows do. It's priced right, and if you clean your gun shortly after shooting it will be fine. I pull the barrel out and run it under hot water while pushing a soapy brush through it. After I'm done the warm barrel dries quickly and I lightly oil it inside and out. The CZ-52 is a typical piece of Czech quality workmanship, it's fun to shoot, and right now they are
plentiful and inexpensive. If you don't get one now you may wish you had once they all disappear. NOTE---Be careful of the firing pin. It's cast steel and will last indefinitely under normal usage but if
subjected to repeated dry firing may break prematurely.
I have shot both, and I like shooting the big one better [CZ52].
If I carried both, I might like the little one better [MAK].
Wolf ammo throws the American idea of 9x18 max pressure out the window. [thank you Wolf]
Recently, Accurate came out with the 42,000 cup loads for 7.62x25. The CZ52's real comparison should be with an M1 carbine.
All the military ammo and S&B do 1450 to 1550 fps with 86 gr bullets. The accurate loads do 1700 fps with 110 gr and 1900 fps with 86 gr.
Obviously, at 37 ounces loaded and with the above super loads, the CZ52 is a very different pistol from the MAK.
If I carried both, I might like the little one better [MAK].
Wolf ammo throws the American idea of 9x18 max pressure out the window. [thank you Wolf]
Recently, Accurate came out with the 42,000 cup loads for 7.62x25. The CZ52's real comparison should be with an M1 carbine.
All the military ammo and S&B do 1450 to 1550 fps with 86 gr bullets. The accurate loads do 1700 fps with 110 gr and 1900 fps with 86 gr.
Obviously, at 37 ounces loaded and with the above super loads, the CZ52 is a very different pistol from the MAK.
Walt Sherrill
New member
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xxero:
OK, here are some facts: The SAAMI pressure spec on a 44 magnum is 40,000 cup. The SAAMI pressure spec on the CZ-52 is 52,000 cup.
The gun is hot as hell!
What you should consider is if you want a large gun with lots of power and somewhat difficult to find ammo.
OR
A small gun that's easy to carry, accurate and shoots fairly easy to find ammo.
[/quote]
Some experts upon whom I rely on these matters (including a gunsmith or two on the Curio & Relics list, where they specialize in these type of military weapons) acknowledge all of the points made above. You are correct.
But they also note that the CZ-52 bullet is relatively small (small cross section) and not all that heavy, which accounts for the high projectile speed. Because the bullet isn't all that heavy (ala .44 mag) the energy imparted isn't that great -- stopping power won't come close to a .357 mag or .44 mag despite those high numbers.
A matter of greater concern is its PENETRATING POWER, which is quite high. Use it for home defense and you might find that it will go through an invading felon, a wall or two AND the house next door, an innocent bystander,and who knows what else -- with unpredictable consequences.
(I had thought of getting one recently, but the range where i shoot [indoor] has heavy steel traps at the back, and I'm afraid the bullets might go right through the steel if you hit just the right spot... That would probably make me persona no gratis, there...)
While I think the Mak cartridge borders on the anemic, you can get hotter ammo, and the gun is durable and very well made. Especially the EG Maks.
OK, here are some facts: The SAAMI pressure spec on a 44 magnum is 40,000 cup. The SAAMI pressure spec on the CZ-52 is 52,000 cup.
The gun is hot as hell!
What you should consider is if you want a large gun with lots of power and somewhat difficult to find ammo.
OR
A small gun that's easy to carry, accurate and shoots fairly easy to find ammo.
[/quote]
Some experts upon whom I rely on these matters (including a gunsmith or two on the Curio & Relics list, where they specialize in these type of military weapons) acknowledge all of the points made above. You are correct.
But they also note that the CZ-52 bullet is relatively small (small cross section) and not all that heavy, which accounts for the high projectile speed. Because the bullet isn't all that heavy (ala .44 mag) the energy imparted isn't that great -- stopping power won't come close to a .357 mag or .44 mag despite those high numbers.
A matter of greater concern is its PENETRATING POWER, which is quite high. Use it for home defense and you might find that it will go through an invading felon, a wall or two AND the house next door, an innocent bystander,and who knows what else -- with unpredictable consequences.
(I had thought of getting one recently, but the range where i shoot [indoor] has heavy steel traps at the back, and I'm afraid the bullets might go right through the steel if you hit just the right spot... That would probably make me persona no gratis, there...)
While I think the Mak cartridge borders on the anemic, you can get hotter ammo, and the gun is durable and very well made. Especially the EG Maks.
Until a few months ago 25,000 cup was the max for 7.62x25mm. Then Ted Curtis at Accrurate did the work on CZ52s, and now we have some 42,000 cup loads.
I have been following this for some time and I belive the above reference to 52,000 cup is a new one.
DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!!
THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN
CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS
A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B]
I have reason to believe that the CZ52 can do 52,000 cup, but not with Polish 1955 brass that failed on me at 43,000 cup. I would use S&B or Starline for the experenent.
[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]
I have been following this for some time and I belive the above reference to 52,000 cup is a new one.
DESTRUCTIVE LOAD PRESSURE DATA!!!
THESE LOADS EXCEED SAAMI SPECS. THEY ARE INTENDED TO RESULT IN
CATASTROPHIC FAILURE OF THE FIREARM AND/OR THE RELOADED COMPONENTS AS
A MEANS TOWARD COMPILING LOAD PRESSURE DATA. [/B]
I have reason to believe that the CZ52 can do 52,000 cup, but not with Polish 1955 brass that failed on me at 43,000 cup. I would use S&B or Starline for the experenent.
[This message has been edited by Clark (edited August 22, 2000).]