Magnum Auto Pistols

4

44 AMP

Staff
The recent thread on .357s got me thinking, its time to drag out some artillery and show them off. So come on, let's see them! I know some of you have some of these beasts in your stables....
I'll start...



This isn't a thread about how big, heavy, expensive, or useless they are. We know all that. This is about our experiences with this niche of auto pistol designs. What we like, and don't like. What works, and what doesn't, and how well. And maybe some nice eye candy of the highly specialized guns that have come and gone, and those still with us.
 


here's the Coonan, one of the first, a Model A

And, yes, I'm looking for true magnums. The .357 Sig just doesn't make it. 10mm has the power to reach the bottom floor, but isn't called a "magnum". .50AE has the power, but not the magnum name, probably because there was no previous .50 caliber cartridge for it to be a magnum of.

The first auto pistol I know of, with actual magnum performance was the Mars pistol, back in the 20s, IIRC. I've only seen pictures, and it is well, to my eyes, wonky. Reportedly fired a .45 caliber 230(250?) gr bullet at 1200+fps.

These ultra rare pieces are beyond the reach of all but a handful of collectors.

The Modern Era of Magnum Auto Pistols began about 1970 with the introduction of the ,44 Auto Mag Pistol. Stainless steel, recoil operated, multiple lug rotating bolt, weighing two ounces more than a S&W M29 (6.5" barrel) and launching a 240gr bullet at 1600fps from that 6.5" barrel.
 


here is the .44 Auto Mag and the S&W model 29 (6.5"). Not all that much difference in overall size, but considerable difference in shape.
 
Alas. the 357 Sig is only a Super 9MM ( and a regular old 9MM can get pretty close to it ). The name .357 makes peoples eyes light up, that magic number .357. They knew that if they called it a Super Nine people might say "Oh well" and walk on by, but by calling it the .357 Sig, that was a marketing stroke of genius.:)
 


In 1984, the Desert Eagle landed on our shores. First in .357 Magnum, and later in .44 Magnum. .41 Magnum was offered for a time (not sure if it still is), and the Desert Eagle eventually became a platform for the .50AE.

This one, is one of the early .44 Magnums, purchased new in Feb 1990.

The Desert Eagle is truly a massive handgun. Weighing 4.25lbs empty, and feeling considerably heavier when loaded with 8 (or 8+1) rounds of .44 Magnum. Gas operated, and using a multiple lug rotating bolt for lockup. The pistol uses the regular rimmed revolver round, BUT only jacketed bullets should be used, as lead bullets are known to clog the gas system, which is quite difficult to clean once clogged.



.44 Mag Desert Eagle and .44 Auto Mag.
 
Picked up a .44 Desert Eagle around 1984, traded it for one of the first stainless models. Only regret is that I didn't buy a (.44) 10" barrel and all 3 of the .41 caliber barrels to go with it. Had some custom work done and refinished the uppers in black chrome. Still use it every fall for Whitetails....quite effective.

44 AMP, nice collection! Now you just need to get a Wildey and a Grizzly.

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I have had .44mags for over 20yrs now last year I topped it off buy finally getting my bucket list by getting my desert eagle it truly is a awesome gun
 
Here you go, Rembrandt...the rest of my collection



LAR GRIZZLY .45 Winchester Magnum 6" barrel. This one has some kind of special hard chrome finish (I forgot the name, but the guy who had it thought it was worth $600 extra...:eek:) Recoil operated, the Grizzly is a 1911A1 that seriously took its vitamins! Several parts will interchange with 1911s.



Wildey .45 Winchester Magnum. The barrel is 7.5", but looks much shorter because of the gun's design. This is a unique gas operated design, also with a rotating bolt lockup. The Wildey's gas system is fully adjustable, without tools. Some experimenting is needed, to find the right setting for each load, but this allows the gun to be adjusted to run on any load from mild to wild., without changing springs, or any part at all. Simply turn the gas adjustment nut. As far as I know, no other production auto pistol has this ability.

Hi Peter! was hoping yours would show up here!

SO, here we have examples of all of what I call "first generation" magnum auto pistols. There are others, what I call second generation. I never got there, but I know some of you have.

These 2nd gen pistols would be the Automag series (note: one word name,). Automag II, (.22WMR) III (.30 Carbine), IV (.45 Win Mag, and rarely 9mm Win Mag), and V (.50AE).

Although sharing a similar sounding name with the original Auto Mag (note: two word name), the Automag series are completely different designs. The Automag II (.22WMR) is a delayed (retarded) blowback action, and the others use a variation of the Browning tilt barrel lock up. (IIRC, I don't have personal experience with the III, IV, or V).

Of the top of my head, I cannot think of any other real "magnum" autos, right now. Are there any others out there that you think would be in this class?
 
Great thread! I've always thought that the original Automag was the sexiest design around. I'll have to dig my .357AMP out and post pics.
 
very cool to see NORMA ammo for those beasts

strange because there certainly wasn't a market for it back here in Sweden.
 


This is the original factory ammo for the .44 AMP. The gun's makers contracted with CDM (the Mexican ammo maker, at the time owned 49% by Remington) for 1,000,000 rounds loaded and 600,000 empty brass. Later on, Norma made a run of 44 AMP, not sure how much, but not as much as the initial CDM run.

Otherwise, the only way to get ammo was to make it, by cutting a .308 Winchester (or other case with the same head size) to the proper length (1.298"), and reaming out the case mouth to get the brass down to the correct thickness.

Original .44 AMP data was SMOKIN HOT. 50,000psi working pressure. (measured the old way, back in the 70s) When they claimed they got 1600+fps with a 240gr bullet from a 6.5" barrel, they got it! Even loads with regular .44 mag revolver powder charges got about 100fps boost, thanks to the cases made from rifle brass and the solid barrel of the auto vs the flash gap of the revolver.

The Mexican factory stuff is loaded a bit lighter than the top end handloads, giving a bit over 1300fps. It is loaded with a 240gr hollow point, but does not expand well. The hollow point is very small, and the jacket covers the bullet tip, except for a small circle of lead around the hollow point.

They do, however, penetrate like a son o...penetrate really well.:D Moderately thick iron is not a barrier. The scene in Sudden Impact where Harry shoots through some thick angle iron might have been special effects for the film, but the Auto Mag will do this in real life.
 


this one is one of the last production guns, made after Lee Jurras (founder of Super Vel ammo) obtained distributorship. It has the Jurras Lion Head logo as well as the TDE logo on it.

This is the complete set as originally sold, Gun, case, special oil, allen wrenches (the Auto Mag uses allen head screws), manual, warranty papers, and a box of Super Vel ammo. The ammo in the box uses CDM cases, but a different bullet than the CDM ammo.
 


These are my Auto Mags. The standard gun is the 6.5" with the vent rib. The others are 8" .44AMP and a 7.5" .357 AMP. The longer barrel guns were not made in large numbers, and did not have the vent rib.

In the movie Sudden Impact, the gun Clint Eastwood uses is an 8" .44 with a vent rib. Two guns were made by Harry Sanford (who ran the original Auto Mag corp) for that movie. One fully functional and one blank firing only.

for a while, after the movie, you could get a rib put on a longer barrel gun (for a hefty fee), but the plain barrel was how they shipped from the factory.
 
Years ago my dad picked up a Wildey in 475 super cheap. Couldn't find brass for it so we had to make it from .284 brass. Took us a week to make 50 pieces. Had to cut it down, size it, then cut the inside about half way down, then resize. Shot it a few times then sold it for twice what he paid for it. Even with the PITA of forming brass I wish he had kept it.
 
The PITA of forming brass...
Yes, that's the down side to the proprietary cartridges (aka "wildcats").

you can't just buy them, you have to make them. Real wildcatters don't mind, its part of the fun. Others don't mind (much) when what they are feeding is a custom bolt action or single shot rifle (or handgun).

but when you need ammo in quantities to feed an auto pistol, well, then, its a PITA, or its just too much "trouble".

And there is something to this, from a market perspective. With a new gun and cartridge design, not in production by major makers, its tough. Chicken and egg kind of thing.

Ammo makers don't make the round, because there aren't enough guns creating demand, to justify the cost. Guns aren't being bought in large numbers, because ammo isn't commonly available. One feeds the other and the other feeds the one, making it very tough for both to move forward, or even survive on the market.

The magnum auto pistols currently in, or back in production use the standard, long established revolver case. Not all loadings are suitable for the autos, but it is a common ammo that they use.



Here's an in the box shot of the old Coonan. The Coonan with its 1911 style design, (or the LAR Grizzly in .357 -if you can find one) are better suited to a wider range of ammo than the Desert Eagle.

The power level needed to cycle the 1911 style guns can be adjusted by changing the springs, and they don't have issues with lead bullets like the Desert Eagle does.

The down side to this is that the tilt barrel systems are overall less accurate. Not any concern at regular pistol ranges, but when/if you start really reaching out there, the fixed barrel guns show an accuracy advantage.

Not always a lot, or even enough to really matter, sometimes, but enough to see, if not actively use.
 
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