Mag disconnect Q

C

Coronach

New member
Okay. I've heard it said so much around here that I'm starting to believe it. Magazine disconnects are Good Things and if you don't have one on your gun, then you own an Evil Gun (tm) and the lawyers will eat you alive.

Here is my question: why?

I *personally* like the magazine disconnect for a duty weapon, so that if you get in a scuffle over the gun and can hit your mag release you can disable the weapon. We are actually taught to do this and in a couple of instances it has actually been used successfully.

Now, in the twisted logic of the times, this ought to make the magazine disconnect a 'military' or 'police' feature (like bayonet lugs and pistol grips on rifles), but apparently the anti-gun folks love them.

Is it just so that, in the rarest-of-rare instances when you take out your mag but leave the one in the spout, and leave the gun out of the safe and little junior gets it, it won't go off? O ris it not even that well thought-out?

Anyone know?

Mike


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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
There have been reported accidents where a novice took the magazine out of a semi-auto and then thought the gun was unloaded. The usual news story about an accidental shooting sometimes follows... Although I hate to say it, there is a small amount of logic to the argument. OTOH, I don't want them on my guns, and I sure don't want a law mandating their use.

As far as the lawyers "eating you alive", I'm not too worried about that. If I use my gun in a defensive encounter, I can't imagine the absence of a magazine disconnect being an issue, since I plan on keeping the magazine in for my ammo supply. :)
 
Some say that if you have removed the magazine safety and are involved in a shooting you will be in a world of hurt because the safety is removed. I don't understand that thinking, you need the flaming magazine to hold the cartridges to start with so it would be in the pistol anyway and the safety would, thus, be deactivated by the magazine. I don't care for them in my pistols. OTOH, I know of a shooting where the GG won because the BG had
a magazine safetied BHP and the magazine ejected during the shoot out because the mag. release had been depressed. One shot was all he got to take before the BG ate 4.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
In a pure unquestioned self defense situation, I doubt the safety device(s) will matter. But if some kid finds the gun and uses it and a safety was removed or made inoperable, I think that could tell in a civil suit.

Jim
 
It is a horrible feature to be found on a work gun or duty weapon. Should an individual be caught in the middle of a tactical reload, with the disconnect his weapon is useless. I will take the chance w/ that one round left in the chamber at that close of a distance. Also, to rely on the mag safety to be 100% effective is flawed too. This is a mechanical mechanism that is prone to failure, just as a thumb safety. A weapon is not safe until the magazine removed and the chamber cleared. It is them safe. Letting a round chambered and relying on that disconnect is bad news.

Be Safe
Mike
 
I agree, sorta.

I absolutely agree that reliance upon it as a safety (leaving one in the spout)is the original bad idea.

I agree less with the tactical reload argument. Is it still a disadvantage? Yes, but one that can be minimized by having the second mag ready before kicking out the first. I guess which situation is more likely...a tactical reload gone awry or a struggle over the gun. Most cops who are shot are shot with their own guns...so I'm betting the latter.

Mike


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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
My chief gripe against magazine disconnectors is that they require the insertion of an empty mag for dry firing (or even just dropping the hammer). I hate doing that; it requires keeping a mag empty (and therefore useless for actual shooting) and raises the possibility of an ND when a loaded mag gets mixed up with the empty one.
 
I'm not a fan of the magazine disconnect. Regarding the disarm possibility, I think the better solution would be to train the police officers in handgun retention techniques.

Regarding possible liability if you do remove the magazine disconnect, the theory is that the district attorney (or the plaintiff's attorney in a civil case) will use the fact that you disabled a safety device as evidence that you were reckless. Even though this might have nothing to do with why or how you shot the perp, the attorney may use it to try to sway the jury's opinion about you.

Where I live, the jury is likely to be full of people who are anti-gun and ignorant of guns as well, who think that anyone who carries a gun is a criminal. For people like that, it is possible that the attorney's smear job could help sway them that you are bad person. I can just hear the bottom-feeder now: "Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, not only was the defendent carrying a GUN, but that dangerous gun was not dangerous enough for him! Oh, no! He had to go ahead and make it EVEN MORE DANGEROUS by removing an important safety device! Yadda, yadda, yadda."

Is this just an irrational fear on my part? Dunno, since I have no direct experience (knock on wood). Ayoob recommends against removing mag safeties, but I don't know if he's seen this sort of tactic in court.

Jared
 
Coronach, I think you hit the nail on the head about why the antis want them. This was the argument used in L.A. by HCI in the Beretta trial when the 14 year old shot his friend by accident.

I don't like widowmakers and remove them from all my BHP's. I just sent a list of questions and procedures to an investigator for the district attorneys office to give to their lawyer should the removal of a disconnector ever be brought up in court.
 
I read here not too long ago (maybe in another forum) that Sellout & Weaker mag disconnects had about a 30% failure rate! So much for that safety, if you can't rely on it, then why have more moving parts to fail? A gun is a very simple machine, and very efficient, as evidenced by the fact that there have been basically no function/design breakthroughs or changes in about 75 years.
I agree with the view that if mag disconnect safeties are mandated, then you can write laws to basically invalidate the lawfullness of pre safety guns, and also reclassify mag safeties as "Military/LEO only", thereby effectively gaining gun banning by proxy. And we all know that the goblins will be the first in line to give in their guns, right? :rolleyes:

Tom



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A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
 
"Regarding the disarm possibility, I think the better solution would be to train the police officers in handgun retention techniques."

We are. The magazine-pop maneuver is taught as part of that. OBVIOUSLY it is not an ideal solution...what if you hit the mag release and something (like a hand) is holding the mag in place?...what if you pop the mag and it drops partly, the BG gets the gun, doesn't waste a second and slams it back home and *BANG?* Heck, what if you can't get your thumb to the release? Well...thats why we're taught to hit the mag release only if we think we're about to lose the gun....thats after we have gone through the hole gamut of grip-dip-twist and barrel-lever and all that.

I dunno. I just thought of this; the gun I learned to shoot on (BHP) and my current duty weapon (4506-1) both have mag safeties. I have put more rounds downrange with these two handguns than with all my other handguns combined. I guess I just grew up used to mag safeties.

Mike

PS BTW, I certainly don't think they should be *mandatory* or anything, any more than DAO or "x-pound" pulls should be mandated.

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
Huh, I always thought it was one of them "chocolate or vanilla" kind of questions. Or maybe more like "stick shift or automatic". Now it looks like there's an insidious side to the magazine disconnect question. I yanked the ones in my Browning HPs but only because the mags wouldn't fall free. That was an issue of real tactical concern I felt. Like some, I don't hit the mag release until that spare mag is firmly in my hand and on the way up. Just endless hours and reps, and now it's no hu-hu. Stay safe.
 
Coronach:

Just out of curiousity, which retention technique does your department teach? Lindell? Hamilton?

Jared
 
Sorry, missed your question for a few days.

Short answer: I have no idea.

We were not taught techniques by name or style...our SD instructors simply told us to do it and we did.

A brief rundown:

1. If a BG goes for your gun and it is still in the holster, do everything to KEEP it there. We have level 3 holsters, so we have a LITTLE more margin for error...but we were taught not to rely on the restraints to keep the gun seated. Anything can fail, and Murphy will dictate that the one time you fail to secure BOTH snaps will be the time some idiot dives for your .45. Plant strong hand firmly atop either the gun or the BG's hand...both hands if you can get both...dip, and twist violently back and forth. Don't be afraid to throw up an elbow and break a nose. Bite if you have to.

2. If the guy gets the gun out and you still have hands on it, or hands on his hands, grasp the barrel with both hands (if possible) and twist it either sideways (or lever the barrel upwards). DON'T DRAG THE BARREL ACROSS YOUR BODY, as the gun is likely to discharge in the process of doing this...you're also likely to break the BG's finger on the trigger guard.

We also learned a push-pull technique.

Hmmm. I'm not describing this well. Which does this sound like?

Mike


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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
Hmm. None that I'm aware of, but I'm only familiar with the Lindell and Hamilton techniques. Some folks here in MA teach the Lindell method: http://www.aware.org

Ayoob also teaches the Lindell method in LFI 2 and LFI 3

Greg Hamilton teaches his method at Insights Training center: http://www.insightstraining.com/

I don't know that I can adequately describe the Lindell techniques. If it is a front grap for the gun in the holster, strong hand goes on gun, pushing down. Weak hand comes across the chest, to push their hands off to the side. If you have the gun out and they grab from below, splint their wrist with your weak hand, then lever the gun down while stepping back. It just peels right out of their grip. For a top grab, you move forward and turn so that you are facing the same way as they are, but you are now leg to leg with them. You go to the side of the grab. The gun just peels out of their hand. The Lindell techniques work on leverage, not strength. I watched a 5' tall female instructor easily defeat a grab by much larger male students. If you can, you might try to see if you can find someone who teaches the Lindell method. Ayoob sells a video on the Lindell techniques http://www.ayoob.com

Jared
 
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