dustinlowery
New member
Any military or ex-military members like to discuss, complain about machine guns or show some pics
Machine Guns
- Thread starter dustinlowery
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Evil Monkey
New member
HAHAHahahaha
Why would you want to complain about MG's? It's like saying "Hey, let's complain about AR's and AK's like we always do!".
I've never served, but I'll talk MG with you.
Why would you want to complain about MG's? It's like saying "Hey, let's complain about AR's and AK's like we always do!".
I've never served, but I'll talk MG with you.
Ok, I'll play
I am former military, a former Small Arms Repairman. I worked on the M60, M73, M73A1, M219, M2HB, M85, and the new at the time M240 machineguns. Also the M16A1, M3/M3A1, the 1911A1, the M139 20mm automatic gun, the 90mm and 106mm recoiless rifles and the 81mm and 4.2in mortars. Also a couple of Winchester and Remington shotguns.
Here's a complaint; the M60 has poor design features. Not for nothing did we call it "the pig".
If you want to know what worked, and what didn't, what broke, and what didn't, just ask, and I'll try to dig up some details from the past to entertain and enlighten you.
Outside of my MOS, I have been a student of machine gun design and history for a while, and while I can't own them where I live, I can still read about them.
Do you have a copy of The Machine Gun by Col Chinn? This is a huge multi volume reference work, created for the Navy Dept. It cost a whole buch as books, but can be had on CD-ROM for under $20. If it isn't in there, it probably doesn't exist. Originally publised in the 50s, there have been several updates.
I am former military, a former Small Arms Repairman. I worked on the M60, M73, M73A1, M219, M2HB, M85, and the new at the time M240 machineguns. Also the M16A1, M3/M3A1, the 1911A1, the M139 20mm automatic gun, the 90mm and 106mm recoiless rifles and the 81mm and 4.2in mortars. Also a couple of Winchester and Remington shotguns.
Here's a complaint; the M60 has poor design features. Not for nothing did we call it "the pig".
If you want to know what worked, and what didn't, what broke, and what didn't, just ask, and I'll try to dig up some details from the past to entertain and enlighten you.
Outside of my MOS, I have been a student of machine gun design and history for a while, and while I can't own them where I live, I can still read about them.
Do you have a copy of The Machine Gun by Col Chinn? This is a huge multi volume reference work, created for the Navy Dept. It cost a whole buch as books, but can be had on CD-ROM for under $20. If it isn't in there, it probably doesn't exist. Originally publised in the 50s, there have been several updates.
dustinlowery
New member
Im not saying i wana complain about all MG's but their are a lot of faulty designs out their i just wana see what some others opinions are
No good my arse! You are one of the people on this Earth I am most envious of. You fought in battles where men were men and weapons were steel and wood, as it should be! You had all the great weapons designs in modern history at your disposal and you say you are no good, bah! To think that those Thompsons and Garands and Colts and Springfields and Brownings were the grandaddys of our most modern firearms kind of brings a tear to the eye
. Thank you for keeping me from speaking German, and any details you would like to share about your firearms experience would be fantastic to me. Nick
dustinlowery
New member
ya absolutley its just i just figured military and exmilitary have a lot more experience because heck its free for us
ok,, so ask already....
Ok, here's two of the problem children I served with, the M60 and the M73/M219.
Everybody knows the M60, but only a few of us had to endure the M73. It was the original co-ax gun for the M60 tank. Definately designed by engineers, among its features included case grippers which held the fired case while it was rotated 180 degrees through it's long axis and then ejected!
the guns didn't work real well, so they took out some parts and renamed it the M73A1. That one didn't work much better, so they took out some more parts and it became the M 219. That one almost worked. Actually it did, if you treated it right. Mostly. The gun was replaced in service in 1978, by the Belgian designed Mag 58, known in US use as the M 240.
What is it you want anyway? Stories? design analysis? opinions? Praise for Browning designed guns (which deserve it)?,
Here's a story, long, long ago, in a place far, far away, I was approached by members of a Canadian SP Arty unit, who were looking to trade some things. At the time I was looking for the top cover for an M2 (a part we were not authorised to order), and they had one. They, on the other hand, were desperate for something I had, the repair manual, which had that most important of things, pictures! Their manuals had parts lists, but no pictures! We worked a deal, swapped stories, a few beers, and everybody went away happy. One thing I thought was neat was that these guys were using the Browning .30 cal machinegun (converted to .308) on the tops of their M109A1 SP guns!
Quiz: What parts do you think break most often on:
M2HB
M60
M3A1
M16A1
?
What happens to the M60 machine gun when you put the (1)bolt roller or (2) gas piston in backwards?
Why should you never remove the backplate of an M2HB while the bolt is to the rear?
Where do the legs of the hammer spring on an M16A1 go?
Can you have a cartridge cook-off in the M60?
How should the gas rings be arranged on the M16 bolt?
1 point each correct answer. I gave you a couple of easy ones!
come on, let's play! A perfect score gets a "well done" but no prize. A failing score get a long winded explanation, and no prize!
Is this the kind of thing you are looking for?
Ok, here's two of the problem children I served with, the M60 and the M73/M219.
Everybody knows the M60, but only a few of us had to endure the M73. It was the original co-ax gun for the M60 tank. Definately designed by engineers, among its features included case grippers which held the fired case while it was rotated 180 degrees through it's long axis and then ejected!
the guns didn't work real well, so they took out some parts and renamed it the M73A1. That one didn't work much better, so they took out some more parts and it became the M 219. That one almost worked. Actually it did, if you treated it right. Mostly. The gun was replaced in service in 1978, by the Belgian designed Mag 58, known in US use as the M 240.
What is it you want anyway? Stories? design analysis? opinions? Praise for Browning designed guns (which deserve it)?,
Here's a story, long, long ago, in a place far, far away, I was approached by members of a Canadian SP Arty unit, who were looking to trade some things. At the time I was looking for the top cover for an M2 (a part we were not authorised to order), and they had one. They, on the other hand, were desperate for something I had, the repair manual, which had that most important of things, pictures! Their manuals had parts lists, but no pictures! We worked a deal, swapped stories, a few beers, and everybody went away happy. One thing I thought was neat was that these guys were using the Browning .30 cal machinegun (converted to .308) on the tops of their M109A1 SP guns!
Quiz: What parts do you think break most often on:
M2HB
M60
M3A1
M16A1
?
What happens to the M60 machine gun when you put the (1)bolt roller or (2) gas piston in backwards?
Why should you never remove the backplate of an M2HB while the bolt is to the rear?
Where do the legs of the hammer spring on an M16A1 go?
Can you have a cartridge cook-off in the M60?
How should the gas rings be arranged on the M16 bolt?
1 point each correct answer. I gave you a couple of easy ones!
come on, let's play! A perfect score gets a "well done" but no prize. A failing score get a long winded explanation, and no prize!
Is this the kind of thing you are looking for?
Uh, thanks for the praise, but it's somewhat misplaced. I do feel the same way about those veterans that you do.
What I meant by my post is that my 'firearm experience' is all WW2 and earlier. I have fired (and own) SMG's and MG's but they are almost all WW2 issue and earlier. So I cannot speak to the quality/efficacy/accuracy of modern arms.
You want to speak about Thompsons, Grease Guns, BRENs, Suomis, Berettas, etc ... - I'm your guy. But I'm just a civilian with terrible eyesight and flat feet who never served in our military.
But thanks to those who did (and do)!
Eh, I'll take a stab at the quiz. I'll probably do horribly, especially since I'm not really familiar with the internals of the M2.
1:
M2 - I don't know.
M60 - I'm told that the sear wears out pretty quickly
M3A1 - If we were talking about the original M3, I'd say the charging handle, but the 'A1 doesn't have that specifically for that reason. I seem to recall another commonly malfunctioning part on it though... the dustcover/safety?
M16A1 - I'm gonna vote for the firing pin retainer.
2:
Bolt roller - I don't know.
Gas piston - You end up with a straight-pull bolt action rifle.
3: My guess would be that you'll get your butt kicked by the recoil spring when it comes out in your general direction. Then again, that could be my experience with the SKS.
4: Um, either against the floor of the lower receiver or they rest on the trigger pin. I really ought to know this...
5: IIRC, the M60 is open-bolt so no.
6: With their gaps rotated out of alignment of each other so as not to allow gas to blow by them.
Note: I'm 100% sure that I could have aced this if I had bothered to look up the answers, and it probably wouldn't have taken me as long as it did by simply working off memory. Alas, I am a complete moron for having a copy of the M2HB armorers' manual in .PDF somewhere around here and having never read it.
1:
M2 - I don't know.
M60 - I'm told that the sear wears out pretty quickly
M3A1 - If we were talking about the original M3, I'd say the charging handle, but the 'A1 doesn't have that specifically for that reason. I seem to recall another commonly malfunctioning part on it though... the dustcover/safety?
M16A1 - I'm gonna vote for the firing pin retainer.
2:
Bolt roller - I don't know.
Gas piston - You end up with a straight-pull bolt action rifle.
3: My guess would be that you'll get your butt kicked by the recoil spring when it comes out in your general direction. Then again, that could be my experience with the SKS.
4: Um, either against the floor of the lower receiver or they rest on the trigger pin. I really ought to know this...
5: IIRC, the M60 is open-bolt so no.
6: With their gaps rotated out of alignment of each other so as not to allow gas to blow by them.
Note: I'm 100% sure that I could have aced this if I had bothered to look up the answers, and it probably wouldn't have taken me as long as it did by simply working off memory. Alas, I am a complete moron for having a copy of the M2HB armorers' manual in .PDF somewhere around here and having never read it.
It turns into a rather cumbersome and slow semiautomatic. Don't ask me how I know...
Because the recoil spring has a full load, and is about 1/8 of an inch from roaring out of there with enough force to penetrate 1/4 inch CDX plywood.
On the TOP of the trigger pin.
I'll say no; it fires from an open bolt. However, strange things can and do occur.
Staggered to prevent loss of gas which can lead to a failure to cycle.
So, how'd I do?
Well, a couple of brave souls...
And some right answers as well. Good job! OK, here are the correct answers:
1.
M2HB, the most commonly broken part is ...the charging handle! When the 80+lbs recievers are being mounted/dismounted from the tracks, sometimes they get dropped. When the charging handle lands on a hard surface, it breaks. Next in line is the rear sight (ears get bent), and then chips/cracks in the spade grips. Being dropped causes most of the repair work to the M2. Other things can and do happen, but not as often.
M60, this one has a lot of problems, and yes, sears do wear out , but my experience is the mart that becomes "unservicable" the most often is the feed tray. Specifically, the hanger portion gets torqued, causing the rivets to loosen, which renders the whole feed tray unservicable.
M3A1, This is a pretty simple design, and while the safety tab in the cover breaks once in a while, the most common failure (IME) is the tab on the end of the barrel nut retaining spring breaks off. Usually the remainder of the spring holds the barrel nut in place, but with the finger tab broken off it gets pretty awkward to disassemble the piece for cleaning. The spring is riveted on to the mag well, so replacement requires cutting off the heads of the rivets, driving them out, and riveting on a new spring.
M16A1, This one is almost a trick question. M16A1, remember it? Triangle handguards? those handguards were the most replaced part. The little tabs that make the cooling holes break off, and after a couple (maybe 3) are broken, the handguard is "unservicable". The firing pin retaining pin (cotter pin) is probably the most lost part, and it also breaks easily.
2. When you put the bolt roller in backwards, the gun still works (at least for a while-personal exp) When you put the gas piston in backwards, the gun works, once, then stops. Manual operation is usually still possible.
3. Exactly right guys, the compressed recoil spring has enough energy top go through you (or most of the way), and is held, but not locked into the reciever, so it can be dislodged rather easily, with bad results for anything directly behind the gun (which is where most of us would be).
4. Right! The legs of the hammer spring should rest in the grooves of the trigger pin. This keeps the trigger pin from "walking" out of the reciever.
5. Right! Fires from an open bolt, and although the firing pin is not fixed, it functions as one. The only way you could have a cook-off is if somehow, the firing pin tip broke while the gun was hot enough to cook off. Not a very credible situation, abut not completely impossible. Outside of the highly improbable, the answer is no.
6. Right again, gaps staggered to prevent gas blowby.
Great job! I'm so glad I'm not the only one who knows this kind of stuff. If you don't have the same kind of background I do, then, exellent knowledge of some arcane automatic weapon trivia. You are to be congratulated!
Want to try some more? Or give me some?
And some right answers as well. Good job! OK, here are the correct answers:
1.
M2HB, the most commonly broken part is ...the charging handle! When the 80+lbs recievers are being mounted/dismounted from the tracks, sometimes they get dropped. When the charging handle lands on a hard surface, it breaks. Next in line is the rear sight (ears get bent), and then chips/cracks in the spade grips. Being dropped causes most of the repair work to the M2. Other things can and do happen, but not as often.
M60, this one has a lot of problems, and yes, sears do wear out , but my experience is the mart that becomes "unservicable" the most often is the feed tray. Specifically, the hanger portion gets torqued, causing the rivets to loosen, which renders the whole feed tray unservicable.
M3A1, This is a pretty simple design, and while the safety tab in the cover breaks once in a while, the most common failure (IME) is the tab on the end of the barrel nut retaining spring breaks off. Usually the remainder of the spring holds the barrel nut in place, but with the finger tab broken off it gets pretty awkward to disassemble the piece for cleaning. The spring is riveted on to the mag well, so replacement requires cutting off the heads of the rivets, driving them out, and riveting on a new spring.
M16A1, This one is almost a trick question. M16A1, remember it? Triangle handguards? those handguards were the most replaced part. The little tabs that make the cooling holes break off, and after a couple (maybe 3) are broken, the handguard is "unservicable". The firing pin retaining pin (cotter pin) is probably the most lost part, and it also breaks easily.
2. When you put the bolt roller in backwards, the gun still works (at least for a while-personal exp) When you put the gas piston in backwards, the gun works, once, then stops. Manual operation is usually still possible.
3. Exactly right guys, the compressed recoil spring has enough energy top go through you (or most of the way), and is held, but not locked into the reciever, so it can be dislodged rather easily, with bad results for anything directly behind the gun (which is where most of us would be).
4. Right! The legs of the hammer spring should rest in the grooves of the trigger pin. This keeps the trigger pin from "walking" out of the reciever.
5. Right! Fires from an open bolt, and although the firing pin is not fixed, it functions as one. The only way you could have a cook-off is if somehow, the firing pin tip broke while the gun was hot enough to cook off. Not a very credible situation, abut not completely impossible. Outside of the highly improbable, the answer is no.
6. Right again, gaps staggered to prevent gas blowby.
Great job! I'm so glad I'm not the only one who knows this kind of stuff. If you don't have the same kind of background I do, then, exellent knowledge of some arcane automatic weapon trivia. You are to be congratulated!
Want to try some more? Or give me some?
Heh, sweet, I feel smart now.
Gimme a little while, I'm sure I can come up with some pretty out-there technical questions. May or may not be MG related though...
I like where this thread has gone.
Edit: Here's a quick one, probably pretty easy:
Name 3 different guns that fall under the category of Automatic (or Semiauto) Revolver. Hint: one of them is a MG.
Gimme a little while, I'm sure I can come up with some pretty out-there technical questions. May or may not be MG related though...
I like where this thread has gone.
Edit: Here's a quick one, probably pretty easy:
Name 3 different guns that fall under the category of Automatic (or Semiauto) Revolver. Hint: one of them is a MG.
off the top of my head
I can only come up with 2, the (classic) Webley-Fosberry, and the modern Mateba. The MG thing has me sumped for now. You are not talking about a gatling or vulcan type with revolving barrels, are you? You are looking for something with revolving chambers, right? I'll have to do some digging in my references.
Here's one,
Before the Barrett, the US did have a semi auto .50 cal "rifle" in it's inventory. Can you name it? and/or describe it?
I can only come up with 2, the (classic) Webley-Fosberry, and the modern Mateba. The MG thing has me sumped for now. You are not talking about a gatling or vulcan type with revolving barrels, are you? You are looking for something with revolving chambers, right? I'll have to do some digging in my references.
Here's one,
Before the Barrett, the US did have a semi auto .50 cal "rifle" in it's inventory. Can you name it? and/or describe it?
That's 2 of 3. And no, revolving battery guns (Gatling guns) don't count, nor do Auger guns (which are like Gatlings but with a multi-chambered cylinder and a single barrel.) It has to have a single barrel and a multi-chambered cylinder which is reloaded by hand, and must automatically rotate it's own cylinder after each shot using energy from the shot itself. Also, it's not necessarily a mass-produced gun.
Man, you got me stumped on the .50 rifle. I'm gonna guess it's not an M2HB that's been rebuilt in a fashion similar to the M1919A6, that would just be weird.
Man, you got me stumped on the .50 rifle. I'm gonna guess it's not an M2HB that's been rebuilt in a fashion similar to the M1919A6, that would just be weird.
Well, ya got me
I have no idea what weapon you are describing. Nothing comes to mind. Point for you.
Notice I put the word "rifle" in quotes. The gun I am referring to is not shoulder fired. It is mounted. Piggyback.
The M8C .50 caliber spotting rifle. Semi auto, 10 rnd mag. No stock, it is mounted on the 106mm recoilless rifle. Fired by cable (manual trigger for backup). It fires a .50 cal round, but the case is smaller than the .50 BMG. The ballistics are matched to the 106mm round.
Normally firing tracer (although other rounds were in inventory, including WP, IIRC). Worked something like this, when engaging targets you fired the spotter rifle until it was on target, then tripped the 106mm to hit.
True or false? There was a gun intended to fire round or square bullets, depending on the religion of the target!
and,
Who would put a bayonet on a belt fed weapon? (country?)
I have no idea what weapon you are describing. Nothing comes to mind. Point for you.
Notice I put the word "rifle" in quotes. The gun I am referring to is not shoulder fired. It is mounted. Piggyback.
The M8C .50 caliber spotting rifle. Semi auto, 10 rnd mag. No stock, it is mounted on the 106mm recoilless rifle. Fired by cable (manual trigger for backup). It fires a .50 cal round, but the case is smaller than the .50 BMG. The ballistics are matched to the 106mm round.
Normally firing tracer (although other rounds were in inventory, including WP, IIRC). Worked something like this, when engaging targets you fired the spotter rifle until it was on target, then tripped the 106mm to hit.
True or false? There was a gun intended to fire round or square bullets, depending on the religion of the target!
and,
Who would put a bayonet on a belt fed weapon? (country?)
Ah, okay, I wasn't thinking of spotting guns. That would be the .50 Spotter, aka the 12.7x76mm, right?
Hmm, I'm gonna have to vote false on the religion gun.
As for the belt-fed bayo, I want to say Russia, but I'm fairly certain I'm wrong on that one...
The answer to my question: The 3rd weapon I was referencing was the Pankor Mk.1/2/3 Jackhammer assault shotgun. Course, those only made it to prototype form and were never mass produced or adopted by anyone. The Pankor Jackhammer was laid out in a bullpup format and used a removable cylinder called a "cassette" which contained ten 12G x 3" shells and had a track machined around the outside similar to on the Webley-Fosberry.
Some of the following information is speculative however this is what I have discerned about it's operation so far: upon firing, the barrel is blown forward, away from the shooter, dragging along with it a pin which protruded into the cassette's track and forced it to rotate after each shot. If the gun had a failure to fire, the cassette could be manually advanced by pushing forward the cocking lever located in the stock just behind the cassette blast shield.
To reload, you put the safety on, then pulled the trigger half way back and slid the pistol grip forward to draw the main pin out of the cassette and allow it to fall out of the bottom of it's blast shield. Insert a new cassette, pull the grip back, take the safety off, continue firing. Also, as far as I've been able to tell, the Mk.1 was semiauto, the Mk.2 was select fire and the Mk.3 was fullauto only.
Hmm, I'm gonna have to vote false on the religion gun.
As for the belt-fed bayo, I want to say Russia, but I'm fairly certain I'm wrong on that one...
The answer to my question: The 3rd weapon I was referencing was the Pankor Mk.1/2/3 Jackhammer assault shotgun. Course, those only made it to prototype form and were never mass produced or adopted by anyone. The Pankor Jackhammer was laid out in a bullpup format and used a removable cylinder called a "cassette" which contained ten 12G x 3" shells and had a track machined around the outside similar to on the Webley-Fosberry.
Some of the following information is speculative however this is what I have discerned about it's operation so far: upon firing, the barrel is blown forward, away from the shooter, dragging along with it a pin which protruded into the cassette's track and forced it to rotate after each shot. If the gun had a failure to fire, the cassette could be manually advanced by pushing forward the cocking lever located in the stock just behind the cassette blast shield.
To reload, you put the safety on, then pulled the trigger half way back and slid the pistol grip forward to draw the main pin out of the cassette and allow it to fall out of the bottom of it's blast shield. Insert a new cassette, pull the grip back, take the safety off, continue firing. Also, as far as I've been able to tell, the Mk.1 was semiauto, the Mk.2 was select fire and the Mk.3 was fullauto only.
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TRUE! Heathens were to be shot with the square bullets and good Christians were to be mercifully dispatched with the round bullets. This was The Puckle Gun. It was a revolving cylinder flintlock weapon that never entered production.
While I have no proof, I would say the Japanese probably were guilty of the bayonet on MG craziness. Those guys sure liked their pig-stickers. They put them on their light MAGAZINE fed machine guns (model 96 and 99).
Oh, wait - are we talking about the Stoner 63 LMG? Cause that might have had a bayonet lug built into it. Essentially just a beefed up M16 (although Stoner would be doing spins in his grave if he heard that).