M2 Ball
- Thread starter olduser
- Start date
"nny 86" means they were made in 1986 by Prvi Partizan in Yugoslavia. If I recall correctly, the very last of the corrosive primers used by US arsenals were in 1955, and while it is highly unlikely the Iron Curtain countries were still using corrosive primers then, a tech at Sellier & Bellot told me that their plant could custom load whatever a customer asked for if the order were large enough back then (though they had stopped cataloging corrosive primers well before the 1980s).
So, we can't be sure, but it is unlikely you have corrosive priming.
What I would advise, though, is pulling a few random samples down to be sure the powder looks and smells good and doesn't clump or have an oily appearance. I had some 1982 S&B 308 ammo I bought a case of that was already going bad when I got it in 1993. It would mainly produce cat-sneeze discharges about one round in 20 when I shot it. But the real horror was that the nitric acid radicals in the deteriorating powder caused bore rust.
So, we can't be sure, but it is unlikely you have corrosive priming.
What I would advise, though, is pulling a few random samples down to be sure the powder looks and smells good and doesn't clump or have an oily appearance. I had some 1982 S&B 308 ammo I bought a case of that was already going bad when I got it in 1993. It would mainly produce cat-sneeze discharges about one round in 20 when I shot it. But the real horror was that the nitric acid radicals in the deteriorating powder caused bore rust.
get a putty knife with an ordinary steel blade. Not stainless or coated just plain steel.
Puil the bullet and dump the powder from a round. Chamber the primed case, put the putty knife blade an inch in front of the muzzle, and fire the primer.
Clean the barrel as if it were corrosive primed, and put the putty knife on a shelf for a day. then two or three, and then look for rust on the blade. If you get any, the primer is corrosive.
If one is, assume the entire batch is, and clean accordingly after shooting them.
Puil the bullet and dump the powder from a round. Chamber the primed case, put the putty knife blade an inch in front of the muzzle, and fire the primer.
Clean the barrel as if it were corrosive primed, and put the putty knife on a shelf for a day. then two or three, and then look for rust on the blade. If you get any, the primer is corrosive.
If one is, assume the entire batch is, and clean accordingly after shooting them.
Average Joe
New member
Not corrosive
M2 ammo Hot?
Had a chance to shoot and chrono some of this today. In my M1 Garand 5 shot average was 2902 fps. This seems kind of hot to me. Researching around it seems the general opinion would be that M2 Ball with 150 gr bullet should run about 2700 fps.
I pulled down a round and it contained 50 gr of what visually looked identical to IMR 4895. (I know that really means nothing) with a 150 gr FMJ bullet.
I think I will calibrate my Schuster to this ammo to shoot the remainder.
Does this stuff seem kind of hot?
Had a chance to shoot and chrono some of this today. In my M1 Garand 5 shot average was 2902 fps. This seems kind of hot to me. Researching around it seems the general opinion would be that M2 Ball with 150 gr bullet should run about 2700 fps.
I pulled down a round and it contained 50 gr of what visually looked identical to IMR 4895. (I know that really means nothing) with a 150 gr FMJ bullet.
I think I will calibrate my Schuster to this ammo to shoot the remainder.
Does this stuff seem kind of hot?
According to Cartridges of the World the spec for M2 ball is 2740 +/- 30fps at 78 feet.
One of the propellants listed is IMR 4895 50.0gr.
Have you chrono'd other M2 ammo through your rifle??
The ammo might be a little "hot" or it might be a little "fast" without being hot, or perhaps your rifle is a little fast??
If the stuff is accurate, the action operates normally, there are no pressure signs or any other issues, a slightly higher than usual velocity isn't much of a problem, is it??
One of the propellants listed is IMR 4895 50.0gr.
Have you chrono'd other M2 ammo through your rifle??
The ammo might be a little "hot" or it might be a little "fast" without being hot, or perhaps your rifle is a little fast??
If the stuff is accurate, the action operates normally, there are no pressure signs or any other issues, a slightly higher than usual velocity isn't much of a problem, is it??
I did some research on the performance of the M2 ball bullet some years ago and found the best match for all ranges was a G6 BC of 0.212. The original bullet had an equivalent* muzzle velocity of 2801 fps and measured 2740 fps at 78 feet (26 yards) from the muzzle. That funny distance was the result of the old government radio coil bullet sensors being set up with the start coil at 1 yard from the muzzle and the stop coil at 51 yards from the muzzle, the center between the two coils then being 26 yards. Also, the drop ballistics were figured under the obsolete U.S. Army Standard Metro atmospheric conditions.
The bottom line here is that if you set your chronograph up at the SAAMI standard distance of 15 feet to the midpoint between screens and you fired in typical summer conditions at Camp Perry (85°F, 78% RH, 572 ft above sea level) to allow for temperature of the powder and air density differences, I would expect to see about 2810 ±30 fps, a range of 2780 to 2840 fps. If you were to add SAAMI's standard allowance for the aging of a lot of ammunition (Maximum Probable Sample Mean), that would bring it up to 2877±30 fps. So, at 2902 fps, you are near the top end of that range under those conditions.
For pulled samples, smell the powder to be sure the scent is normal. Roll it around a bit on the paper and see that no red dust traces are left on the paper when you pour the powder back off of it. What we are looking for here are signs of deterioration. Some powders can deteriorate their deterrent coatings faster than the powder, causing high pressures. However, another trick would be to try putting all the ammo through a seating die just enough to break the seal and then measure velocity again. If it has come down a bit, that's a sign the bullet and neck bond was getting too great with age. But if the velocity is still as high as you say, I would assume the aging of the powder is the issue, and I would pull down the rounds and change the charge to about 48.5 grains.
The bottom line here is that if you set your chronograph up at the SAAMI standard distance of 15 feet to the midpoint between screens and you fired in typical summer conditions at Camp Perry (85°F, 78% RH, 572 ft above sea level) to allow for temperature of the powder and air density differences, I would expect to see about 2810 ±30 fps, a range of 2780 to 2840 fps. If you were to add SAAMI's standard allowance for the aging of a lot of ammunition (Maximum Probable Sample Mean), that would bring it up to 2877±30 fps. So, at 2902 fps, you are near the top end of that range under those conditions.
For pulled samples, smell the powder to be sure the scent is normal. Roll it around a bit on the paper and see that no red dust traces are left on the paper when you pour the powder back off of it. What we are looking for here are signs of deterioration. Some powders can deteriorate their deterrent coatings faster than the powder, causing high pressures. However, another trick would be to try putting all the ammo through a seating die just enough to break the seal and then measure velocity again. If it has come down a bit, that's a sign the bullet and neck bond was getting too great with age. But if the velocity is still as high as you say, I would assume the aging of the powder is the issue, and I would pull down the rounds and change the charge to about 48.5 grains.
Not too sure that sniffing old powder is a good idea. The stuff puts off toxic fumes (nitric and nitrous oxides, NOT goofy gas) and relying on the ammonia-type reflex is not something I want to rely on. Ether and acetone aroma *from a bit of a distance* is what I look for. Pour out and look for rust-red dust like mentioned above is the next step.
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Don't sniff what you don't want to sniff!
The chemical properties of nitric acid fumes are well known, and nitric is one of the "nice" bad chemicals, because it warns you (irritation) well before the concentration is high enough to do actual permanent damage.
The amount of nitric fumes that can be produced from decomposing powder in a cartridge case is not enough to cause permanent damage. However, if you smell any nitric at all, it is a sign the powder is decomposing, and should be disposed of.
Nitric eats brass (and iron) and the vapor from decomposing powder will attack the brass case, weakening, and eventually causing cracks.
IF you find evidence that the powder is going bad in one round, then the entire lot it came from should be considered suspect, and treated accordingly.
You could shoot them up immediately, before they get any worse, but there is some risk in that. The powder may, or may not burn correctly, and the cases might have already been weakened. Not the best idea, but its your stuff, if you want to try, its all on you.
You could toss the lot, but that's also throwing away reusable bullets...
You can pull the bullets, toss the powder, clean the cases (to remove any lingering nitric on the surface of the brass) and reload them. If they aren't already too far gone the brass will be fine, for at least one loading.
Nitric eats brass, but the amount and concentration produced by decomposing powder does it slowly, and the cases might not be damaged for many years after the powder starts going bad. No one knows how much time can go by before the brass is useless, it can be different in each situation. All that is certain is that given enough time, it will happen.
I had a couple stripper clips of 6.5 Swede with a 97 date (1897). When that stuff got a bit past a century old, some of the cases had cracked in the strippers (at the neck/shoulder).
I also ran across some 7.62NATO stuff that had gone bad when it was only about 10-15 years old. Discovered that during shooting. of 100 rounds 11 failed to fire, and 17 of the fired rounds cracked the cases. The rest shot normally. The powder from the duds was clumped and some stuck to the base of the bullets. We had 400 more from the same batch, and pulled those bullets for reuse, and tossed the rest.
The chemical properties of nitric acid fumes are well known, and nitric is one of the "nice" bad chemicals, because it warns you (irritation) well before the concentration is high enough to do actual permanent damage.
The amount of nitric fumes that can be produced from decomposing powder in a cartridge case is not enough to cause permanent damage. However, if you smell any nitric at all, it is a sign the powder is decomposing, and should be disposed of.
Nitric eats brass (and iron) and the vapor from decomposing powder will attack the brass case, weakening, and eventually causing cracks.
IF you find evidence that the powder is going bad in one round, then the entire lot it came from should be considered suspect, and treated accordingly.
You could shoot them up immediately, before they get any worse, but there is some risk in that. The powder may, or may not burn correctly, and the cases might have already been weakened. Not the best idea, but its your stuff, if you want to try, its all on you.
You could toss the lot, but that's also throwing away reusable bullets...
You can pull the bullets, toss the powder, clean the cases (to remove any lingering nitric on the surface of the brass) and reload them. If they aren't already too far gone the brass will be fine, for at least one loading.
Nitric eats brass, but the amount and concentration produced by decomposing powder does it slowly, and the cases might not be damaged for many years after the powder starts going bad. No one knows how much time can go by before the brass is useless, it can be different in each situation. All that is certain is that given enough time, it will happen.
I had a couple stripper clips of 6.5 Swede with a 97 date (1897). When that stuff got a bit past a century old, some of the cases had cracked in the strippers (at the neck/shoulder).
I also ran across some 7.62NATO stuff that had gone bad when it was only about 10-15 years old. Discovered that during shooting. of 100 rounds 11 failed to fire, and 17 of the fired rounds cracked the cases. The rest shot normally. The powder from the duds was clumped and some stuck to the base of the bullets. We had 400 more from the same batch, and pulled those bullets for reuse, and tossed the rest.
...And the nitric acid fumes can make a non-Stainless bore rust. It's fine rust, like you see for rust bluing and browning steel, and not the pitting type that chlorate primers produce, but rust nonetheless. And having the problem non-uniform (some rounds have bad powder and some don't) is also normal as breakdown starts due to the random motion and concentration of heat energy in the molecules, and then snowballs with the affected round as the released acid radicals initiate breakdown in adjacent powder molecules, etc. That it happens to any round in your lot is proof that much of your powder's stabilizer has been consumed and stopped protecting it from doing this, so the rest has likely not got any reliable remaining life expectancy.
44 AMP,
1897? That's over 20 years before they figured out you have to anneal necks and shoulders to prevent season cracking.
It may date me, but when I took chemistry they taught wafting vapors toward yourself with the flat of your hand to mix and dilute fumes with air for sampling odors. But I have to say I've found that more important to do to protect myself from certain perfumes than from powder. Nonetheless, it's a good habit to cultivate for when you run into something genuinely nasty.
44 AMP,
1897? That's over 20 years before they figured out you have to anneal necks and shoulders to prevent season cracking.
It may date me, but when I took chemistry they taught wafting vapors toward yourself with the flat of your hand to mix and dilute fumes with air for sampling odors. But I have to say I've found that more important to do to protect myself from certain perfumes than from powder. Nonetheless, it's a good habit to cultivate for when you run into something genuinely nasty.
Uncle Nick,
the stars must be lined up, because I was actually able to find that ammo I mentioned, and I made a small mistake. It is 6.5x55 ammo.
It is 15 rnds on Mauser 5rnd strippers, in an open top paper carrier with a torn label, but the partial word "deutsche" (space) Met(the rest missing)
and the line below (and printed in the opposite direction is the partial word "Karls"... with the rest missing.
the split case headstamp is
"S. F. M." with "18" at 9o'clock to the primer and "96" at 3 o'clock
bottom center is a character I can' quite make out could be a stylized X or )( or could be something else,
Now it could very well be season cracking due to poor annealing, but the powder space in the case, and the edges of the crack have the blue color of corrosion
There is a color difference between the neck/ shoulder and the case body, but its not the anneal color we typically see today, and so I cannot tell if it was once an annealing mark or not, and could just be the way the cases aged in storage. some of the case necks are still fairly bright and shiny brass, but not all of them an the case bodies are the dull of old dingy brass, but not the dark brown of weathered brass.
And you are dated, dated to the era when you were taught the right way to "sniff" an unknown, or possibly hazardous chemical. You wave /waft some of the air above the opened container to you, NEVER put your face over it.
And yes, I do consider some perfumes as hazardous material.
Some might even be worthy of being classified as weapons of war
Nitric acid will eat brass, iron and carbon steel, but not stainless. How much, and how fast depends on the amount and concentration of the acid.
Brass will go first, black iron takes a while and carbon steel takes even longer but enough time and exposure will do it.
Actually saw (and had to help clean up) the results of a moron who connected an ordinary garden hose to a nitric acid bib. He actualy had to build an adaptor to do it, but he did it. According to one of the operators who was there (and at the time didn't realize what was going on) the brass fitting on the garden hose lasted nearly two minutes, and then just "went away" and acid sprayed out at the header pressure. Rather bad, but no one was injured on that moron's last day on the jobsite....we just had a mess to clean up, neutralize and dispose of under all applicable regs.
the stars must be lined up, because I was actually able to find that ammo I mentioned, and I made a small mistake. It is 6.5x55 ammo.
It is 15 rnds on Mauser 5rnd strippers, in an open top paper carrier with a torn label, but the partial word "deutsche" (space) Met(the rest missing)
and the line below (and printed in the opposite direction is the partial word "Karls"... with the rest missing.
the split case headstamp is
"S. F. M." with "18" at 9o'clock to the primer and "96" at 3 o'clock
bottom center is a character I can' quite make out could be a stylized X or )( or could be something else,
Now it could very well be season cracking due to poor annealing, but the powder space in the case, and the edges of the crack have the blue color of corrosion
There is a color difference between the neck/ shoulder and the case body, but its not the anneal color we typically see today, and so I cannot tell if it was once an annealing mark or not, and could just be the way the cases aged in storage. some of the case necks are still fairly bright and shiny brass, but not all of them an the case bodies are the dull of old dingy brass, but not the dark brown of weathered brass.
And you are dated, dated to the era when you were taught the right way to "sniff" an unknown, or possibly hazardous chemical. You wave /waft some of the air above the opened container to you, NEVER put your face over it.
And yes, I do consider some perfumes as hazardous material.
Some might even be worthy of being classified as weapons of war
Nitric acid will eat brass, iron and carbon steel, but not stainless. How much, and how fast depends on the amount and concentration of the acid.
Brass will go first, black iron takes a while and carbon steel takes even longer but enough time and exposure will do it.
Actually saw (and had to help clean up) the results of a moron who connected an ordinary garden hose to a nitric acid bib. He actualy had to build an adaptor to do it, but he did it. According to one of the operators who was there (and at the time didn't realize what was going on) the brass fitting on the garden hose lasted nearly two minutes, and then just "went away" and acid sprayed out at the header pressure. Rather bad, but no one was injured on that moron's last day on the jobsite....we just had a mess to clean up, neutralize and dispose of under all applicable regs.
If the Wikipedia entry is right, season cracking wasn't figured out until 1921. Before then, whole-case annealing would have been done at different steps in the draw to keep the brass malleable for forming, but not after forming was complete.
Your blue lines sound like cracked versions of the blue holes in annealed brass I have from powder going bad in surplus ammo. The ammo was oddball stuff made on contract by S&B in 1982. I asked them about the lot number since it was already going bad when I got it ten years later, but they said records from the "iron curtain days" are on paper in a warehouse and not scanned for easy searching, and nobody wanted to try to find it.
The bullets were jacketed with mild steel plus about 0.002" of copper plating. Instead of a normal-looking cannelure, they have an actual square-bottom crimp groove around them. The Berdan-primed case's necks were sized as a slip-fit for the bullets. The groove then got some neck pushed into it by something resembling a Lee Factory Crimp collet to hold the bullets, but you could turn them with your fingers. I suppose the seater stem might have been a magnet to keep them from falling in until the crimp was applied. Anyway, that loose fit let the acidic vapors up between the necks and bullets, so some bullets were corrosion-bonded to their case's neck, and many had holes corroded through with verdigris-ringed holes at the location of the bond.
So, annealed necks and shoulders didn't crack, but acid could still eat through them. No surprise there.
Your blue lines sound like cracked versions of the blue holes in annealed brass I have from powder going bad in surplus ammo. The ammo was oddball stuff made on contract by S&B in 1982. I asked them about the lot number since it was already going bad when I got it ten years later, but they said records from the "iron curtain days" are on paper in a warehouse and not scanned for easy searching, and nobody wanted to try to find it.
The bullets were jacketed with mild steel plus about 0.002" of copper plating. Instead of a normal-looking cannelure, they have an actual square-bottom crimp groove around them. The Berdan-primed case's necks were sized as a slip-fit for the bullets. The groove then got some neck pushed into it by something resembling a Lee Factory Crimp collet to hold the bullets, but you could turn them with your fingers. I suppose the seater stem might have been a magnet to keep them from falling in until the crimp was applied. Anyway, that loose fit let the acidic vapors up between the necks and bullets, so some bullets were corrosion-bonded to their case's neck, and many had holes corroded through with verdigris-ringed holes at the location of the bond.
So, annealed necks and shoulders didn't crack, but acid could still eat through them. No surprise there.
you guys had me digging thru my ammo stash found some turkish 8mm headstamped 1939 has the cupronickel projectiles, Im assuming thats what it is they look silver. No cracks in the necks, I may shoot a stripper clip too see if they do crack after firing. Had some yugo 1953 8mm that cracks the necks evey time.
83 years is long time wonder what kind of powder they used back then
83 years is long time wonder what kind of powder they used back then
And, its more than just what they put in it back then, its what has happened to it in all the years since.
Maybe its had proper storage its whole life. Maybe somebody left it where it got too hot for a few years, then sold it to someone who stored it right for 20 years before you got it. ANYTHING is possible.
It makes you wonder the journey it has taken to get me. The places its seen, The people that handle it and are no longer with us.
Jeremy2171
New member
Don't sweat the velocity..it's fine.
You can shoot bullets really fast with absolutely no issues in the garand.
You can shoot bullets really fast with absolutely no issues in the garand.
mikejonestkd
New member
Please cite a reputable source that backs up your claim.
Jeremy2171
New member
Please cite a reputable source that says "x" velocity is dangerous...and why.
mikejonestkd
New member
when a claim is made, the person making the claim is responsible for citing their source material.
Jeremy2171
New member
Then tell us the max velocity that is allowed in the garand. I'll wait