M1903 Springfield?

Mosin-Marauder

New member
I was thinking of saving up some money and trading in my M91/30 for a M1903 Springfield but I had some questions first. How much do these rifles usually run for? What is their availability? How well do they shoot? I couldn't find a very reliable price and I figured I would just ask my other questions here. Thanks in advance.
 
Its like comparing an old beat up toyota to a brand new tundra. The spring field is all around a better rifle.

They run 600+ depending on condition.

I have a mosin an love it, but the Springfield is a much more refined, accurate, smooth... all of the above.
 
I'm kinda learning to hate my Mosin. It's accuracy sucks, the safety doesn't work, the bolt is sticky. Plus. .30-06 is a lot easier to find than 7.62x54R. And having an American Rifle would be a lot better IMO. Plus, it's hot a bent bolt so I can scope it easier. I figure if I trade in all my Mosin Accessories and the rifle I can knock a few hundred off of it. Anyway thanks for your advice.
 
Personally, I wouldn't buy a 1903/03A3 with the intention of scoping it unless it had already been drilled.
 
First, if you buy a M1903, make sure its not a "low numbered" rifle, meaning don't buy one made by Springfield with a serial number less then 800,000 and don't buy a Rock Island with a serial number less then, 285,507. These rifles have the single heat treatment, making the actions brittle. After those numbers the rifles received a double heat treatment, drawing the temper out of the action making them more elastic.

There are those who tell you they've fired them for years without having a problem, but there are also those who have driven for years without seat belts and never had a problem. You never know.

Also if you decide to use the rifles in matches (which you should) low number rifle are prohibited, as well as prohibited at many ranges.

There are enough out there above those serial numbers that there is no reason to take a chance.

The Springfield is the most accurate military rifle made, plus the action is extremely smooth and the sights are excellent.

The Model 1903A3 is better in the sight department then the M1903/M1903A1in my opinion. The longer sight radius makes for more accurate shooting plus the rear sight on the 'A3 is a peep sight.

Some are going to chime in and tell you that this or that rifle is more accurate then the M1903/M1903A3, but that's not the case in general.

The CMP had vintage military rifle matches, in different categories. M1 Garand, Springfield, and "all other" military rifles made and used before 1955.

They have cut off scores for awards given by the CMP. The scores for the Springfield's are higher then the Garand or "other" Military matches.

One can go to the CMP website and check the scores of past events and see which rifle preforms the best.

To cover the Springfield here would take up too much space. If you have questions go to www.odcmp.com and check the bolt action rifle forms. You'll find a lot of information and get any questions you have answered.

The M1903 series rifles have strong actions (the high numbers) and will take any commercial '06 ammo out there. Or you can buy surplus ammo from the CMP, its Greek M-2 ball, ($118 for 200 rounds). I use this ammo in my GSM matches. Its more then capable of out shooting most shooters. It will clean the targets used in these matches.

The hard part is finding an un-molested 1903, meaning "ass issued" and hasn't been sportorized.

If you decide to mount a scope, you can get a replica M-82 scope with mounts from the CMP and convert the rifle to an M1903A4. Don't try to drill and tap them yourself, the actions are hard and its easy to bust off drill bits and taps. Get someone who is experienced in drilling and taping M1903 actions.

Don't discount Smith Corona 1903A3s, they are just as good as any other M1903 out there, and seem to be more common. Remington also made M1903s.

Don't get to concerned if you find out your future M1903 had been rebuilt, they've all been re-built at one time or other. Don't be concerned if you find out your barrel is a two grove barrel, most were and they are extremely accurate barrels.

You wont find a better rifle out there although they (unmodified) are getting harder to find and more expensive. But they are worth it.
 
Thanks so much for the info, Kraig. There's is a gun store a ways from home that deals in vintage Weaponry and the last time I Was there I saw a Springfield or two. Anyway. Thanks for your help.
 
I would expand your look into the Model of 1917 aka so called "Enfield" Eddystone /Remington Winchester types.

It has a a very long sight picture as the rifle is longer and they had the vision to use a peep sight from the start. You can shrink the non battle peep sight down a bit and get even better (JB weld, metal mender etc)

I would handle one first. Its a long heavy rifle compared to a 1903 and its action is a bit sticky (used nickel from the get go where eventually the 1903 went and got a tad sticky as well) Great bench rest rifle though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1917_Enfield


While Kraigway has an overall not to bad view, I do take exception to his characterization of a low SN 1903.

There are those who tell you they've fired them for years without having a problem, but there are also those who have driven for years without seat belts and never had a problem. You never know.

Also if you decide to use the rifles in matches (which you should) low number rifle are prohibited, as well as prohibited at many ranges.

There are enough out there above those serial numbers that there is no reason to take a chance.

The low serials were proof fired. Ergo, the seat belt was tested.

Said rifles have been shot innumerable times (sans the one found in Grandpas attic that has been there since 1918). Seat belt has been tested each time. Abuse can blow up an rifle (we have all see the pictures). None are immune. 1903 ALL have a less than wonderful gas blow by diversion (i.e. the famous Hatcher hole addition)

You would want to check head-space (which you should do on any Mil Surplus rifle) and if you want accurate look at potential accuracy the Throat Erosion (TE) as well as MW (Muzzle wear) as you should on ANY surplus rifle. If you are serious about this get a Steven Mathews TE/MW gauge (for the 1903 though it correlate very well in the Model of 1917s as well) . That also gives you a great idea of how good or bad the barrel condition is as far as value (barrels can be replaced of course)

A lot of ink has been spilt on this low SN subject, but there were severe ammunition issues (solved before and not tested with the double heat treat guns). The ones that finally got around that were the different metals mix and those did not come in until (late 20s or thirties?)

The Marine Corp continued to use the low SN guns.

Also in vogue was the notion of greasing bullets. That was done in one of the 20s National Matches despite specifically being told not to do it as it would blow up rifles (regardless of treatment) and it did when they greased them (gets onto the cartridge and then the head-space disappears)

Kraigway is right about the non allowed use for many matches. However, they allow recovered drill rifles which have the weld cut off that attacks that same receiver (stress crack at the weld point). I have seen the pictures of the result of that. Both should be disallowed by the low SN logic.

So, add to your list Recovered Drill Rifles.

My range has no limitations on what you shoot so that may or may not be an issue so find out if its even on the radar.

I would add that if you want a 1903 with a scope, buy a Sporter, don't scope a good 1903 of any kind as its a tragedy to drill and tap an untapped 1903.

Just shoot the 1903 as a Sporter, not as cool as military but its a true sub culture of its own as they are legend for being the single best conversion of a military rifle. Better than a 1917 but many of those were converted or just plain used as well.

SK makes a non intrusive scope mount for 1903s (it does take a bit of wood relief in the bottom of the stock so you would not want to do that to an original 1903 stock).

I disagree on the Greek ammo. We have shot it in a number of 1903s, including scoped sporters. I would call it machine gun grade. Poor accuracy.

Generally the 1903 are accurate rifles, amazing results from an era when they did not have the high tech equipment of today.

Peep sights shoot very well and even more so as you get older and the eyes shift. That puts things solidly into the A3 or 1917 though if the eyes are good the front receiver sights will work. Probably in my 40s before that got to be untrue.
 
I doubt you'll get much trade in allowance on a Mosin. It would be about like trading in a bent stick on a Weatherby Mark V Deluxe.
 
I think that could be said more politely.

Trade in no, sell yes. They are popular, I see more of them than 1903s let alone 1917s at the range.

Certainly worth $150 or so.

In a way its an amazing gun that served through WWII, not nearly the capability of an M1, but overall it served its purpose with the ones who used it. Its due a bit of respect and its not a stick. Every bit as lethal as the various bolt actions that served most parties in that war.

Equally affective n the hands of a capable rifleman no, on the other hand just how many truly capable riflemen were in each company?
 
Personally I wouldn't trade nor sell the Mosin, I'd keep it and learn to shoot it. Take the bolt apart and clean it. Then dry fire the crap out of it. It will smoothen out.

Mine was like that but now it shoots pretty good. What other rifle comes with its own "shish-ka-bob", shoot some game, spew it with the bayonet, add some veggies and hold it over the fire.

The M-1917 has been mentioned. The M1917 is an accurate rifle, in slow fire. It has good sights, except there is no windage adjustment.

Mine is great using M1 or M2 ammo (or hand loaded ammo to the same specs.) meaning the sight setting match the trajectory of the rifle.

The problem is, when shooting a bolt gun in rapid fire, the rifle should never be removed from the shoulder while working the bolts. It screws up your natural point of aim. Can't do the with the M1917 (takes a lot of practice with the Mosin). The M1903s cock on opening, meaning when you lift the bolt handle, it cocks, where as the M1917 cocks on closing, meaning it cocks when you chamber a round. It takes effort to put the bolt forward, cocking it without disturbing your NPA.

Its difficult to fire a rapid fire string, as its slower then the M1903, takes more effort, and causes you to come out of position. It screws up your timing and takes away from the concentration on the front sight/NPA. I have at times gotten behind on my timing and in the rush, have got on one of the ears (protecting the sights) instead of the sight, which really screws up your score.

Also the M1917 action is longer then the M1903, which forces you to get out of position.

I can load my '03 faster then I can my Garand, and even in rapid fire, I shoot the Springfield better then the Garand.

But like I said, is slow deliberate fire they can be very accurate.

Regardless of which rifle you choose, (I like them all), attend a CMP GSM Clinic, taught by CMP Master Instructor, they will show you how to properly operate and shoot your rifle so you can get the most out of it.

A list of up coming Clinics are listed on the CMP website, if you cant find one close, keep checking, as summer approaches more and more will be showing up.

If your heart is set on a M1903/M1903A3, don't give up on your dream, you wont find a better bolt action military rifle. Just saw that Peterson Hunting, still list the M1903 as one of the top ten best hunting rifles ever made.

If I was limited to only one rifle, it would be a real toss up between my Model 70 Featherweight and my M1903A3. (with my M1903A4 right behind).
 
I think I'm going to b keep working with my Mosin. Considering it's kind of like my signature piece. I just wish it would start shooting better groups.
 
I'm wiht Kraigwy- I wouldn't sell it either. Isn't that the first rifle YOU bought with YOUR dinero?

Another way into a 1903 is to look for one that has the correct bbl and sights, but has been put into a sporter stock. Most pawn shops still call these "bubba jobs" and the prices are way below what an original 03A3 with cartuches would run. Plus, there's a very good chance you could end up with one with a very good bore. I picked up my last one like that for $325 or so. As time and finances allowed, I bought a Boyds GI stock from Boyds, and pieced and parted all the stock hardware a few pieces at a time from Numrich and Sarco. Now I've got a full dress GI style 03A3, and a spare sporter stock I guess. No, it won't fool anyone into thinking it's all original- but it is period correct for 1943. I don't sell rifles that shoot well, but if I did- I have no doubt that I could fetch $500 or so.
 
The low serials were proof fired. Ergo, the seat belt was tested.

Said rifles have been shot innumerable times (sans the one found in Grandpas attic that has been there since 1918). Seat belt has been tested each time. Abuse can blow up an rifle (we have all see the pictures). None are immune. 1903 ALL have a less than wonderful gas blow by diversion (i.e. the famous Hatcher hole addition)

I have not found the concept of a service life around 1900, but today, things are designed with a service life. Someone comes up with a profile of how many rounds, how many miles, how many years, and then the product is designed for, lets say, 10 years with a goal of 20 years. Military service is extremely abusive on an item. As an example, get in a high mileage rental car. I have been in a few that were kept past 40,000 miles, and the vehicles stank, carpet burns, the steering felt loose, one I turned back in, something was broken in the suspension.

It has been proven time and again that rebuilds don’t have the same average lifespan as factory new. With each rebuild the life expectancy turns out to be less. It would be natural to be suspicious of someone claiming that a car with 300,000 miles ought to last forever because the bugs had all been worked out. However, it seems that low number Springfields just get better with age.

My opinion, these old rifles are less strong and less safe than when they were when new. When new, they were built out of low grade materials, materials that today are used for rebar and rail road spikes, and the production processes were so bad, that all of the low number receivers were suspect. The Army could not sort them out, but kept them in service for monetary considerations.

The Marine Corp continued to use the low SN guns.

Safety standards were different. People were cheap, things were expensive. People were disposable, in fact, for the services, it was cheaper to injury a Soldier than to replace a rifle. The cost of recovery and rehabilitation was born by a separate agency. I can recall back then, no safety belts, no air bags, I have seen pictures of GI’s standing outside their foxholes in open air nuclear tests. Used to run across statements from GI’s who washed off the ships in the Baker and Able tests, about how many of their bud’s died from cancer. As you can see in these pictures, no one wore protective clothing. http://life.time.com/history/able-and-baker-photos-from-two-american-a-bomb-tests-in-july-1946/#12

And then there was the Guatemala Syphilis experiment:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-14712089

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_syphilis_experiment

Today there might be objections about being injected with a live syphilis virus, without consent or knowledge.

I do not agree with the Army’s decision to keep low number Springfields in service. I consider this unethical as Soldiers were hurt, and they knew Soldiers/Sailors/Marines would be hurt. Yes, the Army and Marine Corp kept these rifles in service, but, was that the correct decision, and why? And does that validate their continued use now?


Also in vogue was the notion of greasing bullets. That was done in one of the 20s National Matches despite specifically being told not to do it as it would blow up rifles (regardless of treatment) and it did when they greased them (gets onto the cartridge and then the head-space disappears)

Your source is Hatcher. Hatcher always misdirects blame away from the Army. The tin can ammunition was a total public fiasco for the Army, and it was all their fault.

Previous to the National Matches, ammunition was being tested for the National Matches and the tests are being made known to the public. The Army manufactured ammunition beat specially donated commercial ammunition for the National Matches. You just have to understand the advertizing value of having your ammunition accepted and used at the National Matches at the time. Army tin can ammunition beats out all others, the Army brags about it in the Arms and the Man.

However, prior to Camp Perry, at the Wakefield matches, it is reported in the Arms and Man that the tin can bullet fouls just as badly, and the fouling is harder to remove than the cupro-nickel jacketed fouling. I am certain the word got around very quickly. If you have never experienced the sort of bullet fouling cupro-nickel produces you cannot imagine the zero changes and expansion of group size that occurs just after a few bullets go down the barrel. This was the National Matches, you win, you get your picture in the paper, bragging rights for a full year. Anyone who wanted to win was going to grease the heck out of their bullets, so they could shoot the smallest group into the middle of the target. This was not going to happen if you shot the tin can ammunition naked.

But, given the amount of time between manufacture, the tin had cold welded itself to the case necks, creating a god awful bore obstruction, and rifles blew up.

This was highly embarrassing to the Army. Commercial manufacturers whose ammunition lost out to the Army ammunition could made a solid case about Army favoritism and Army incompetence as the “winning” Ordnance Department ammunition just happened to blow up rifles.
The Army puts out a denial:

1 Oct 1921 Arms and the Man, Editorial by Brig-Gen Fred H. Phillips, Jr, Secretary NRA

The National Match Ammunition

Use of the national Match ammunition through the Camp Perry shooting season has amply demonstrated that, in the hands of intelligent rifleman, the “tin can” cartridge may be regarded as absolutely safe.

The fact that the National Matches closed without recording one serious accident in connection with the use of this ammunition seems to be a final and clinching argument, that when properly handled, no disastrous results may be expect. The only instance of rifles having been damaged-there were two out of the thousand-odd in use that suffered from “blow back”-were cause the presence of grease in excessive quantity and were the result of the shooter’s own carelessness. Fortunately the men who experience the blow backs were only superficially hurt. The lesion, however, in connection with the blow backs was plain.

The high degree of accuracy attained in the manufacture of this ammunition cannot be question. It is without a doubt the finest machine-made product that has ever been turned out.

The high quality of this ammunition, together with the remarkable accuracy properties of the new type of National Match rifle will do a very great deal toward promoting the art of marksmanship. …..

Whether the new “tin can” type ammunition may be regarded as a suitable service load for use by troops in the field is a matter for later an more mature determination. But little more could be expected in accuracy and wind bucking qualities from a strictly machine-made product than that exhibited by this year’s tin-plated ball cartridges.


In 1921, the Army’s official position is that the tin can ammunition is perfectly safe. It was not. The tin can ammunition was dangerous because the tin cold welded to the brass case neck creating a bore obstruction. The Army had over one million low number 03’s on the firing line, and these rifles had been blowing up for years because they were defectively manufactured. Instead of admitting that blowup’s were due to defective rifles, the Army had been blaming greased bullets. (The Swiss used greased bullets in their service ammunition until the 1980’s!) When it came to the tin can ammunition, instead of admitting that both Army issued rifles and the tin can ammunition were defective, the Army continued to blame greased bullets. This is a coverup plain and simple.

I have not found anything in print from the period 1918 to 1921 about defective low number receivers, and the fact many of these receivers were known to be unsafe in 1918, when the production processes were changed. I don’t know if the Army ever issued a statement about low number receivers being defective. Instead, throughout this period, the Army is issuing these rifles and selling them to the public. Only after the 1927 report (which recommended that all low number Springfields should be scrapped) is there any inkling in the public domain that there is a problem with these rifles. I think this was through leaks from the people on the board. When Hatcher finally writes about this episode, in 1947, the 03 has been replaced with the Garand. Hatcher has been a contributing writer in all this time period, he was there at the very beginning of this affair, but he provides no warning to anyone, over decades, about the hazards of low number receivers.
 
I do not agree with the Army’s decision to keep low number Springfields in service

We had no choice. We were in a depression and the military is the first to get cut. We simple didn't have the guns to out fit an army.

Its the same with all wars, WWI was the best example, we had less then a million Springfields to deploy with 2.5 mil troops. That's why most troops in WWI used M1917s. Some, even trained with Mosin's and Broom Sticks.

WWII wasn't that much difference. Didn't need an army, WWI was the war to end all wars.

Its that way with all wars, every one laughed at Rumsfeld when he said you go to war with the army we have. He was right.

The closes I can think of as to being prepared for a war was Gulf War I, even then it took several months to stage an army to fight a 100 hour ground war.

The next war will be the same, since we're cutting back our military to pre-WWII levels.

Not trying to be political here, just stating facts that history will prove out.

We we're geared up for the Revolutionary war, War of 1812, Civil war, NONE OF THEM.

But use of low number M1903s was out of necessity. We as hobbyist, plinkers, target shooters don't have to and shouldn't use possible dangerous rifles.

Our range banned the Low Numbers, As a CMP MI, I will not allow one to be used in any matches I conduct.

If one is searching for a M1903, why not get one that's safe.

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As to bubba'ed guns, If the action is in tack, it wont cost much to put the rifle back into as-issued shape.

I got un-issued GI stocks and Barrels from J&G and Sarco. The CMP sells stocks and barrels, GunpartsCorp sells all the GI parts you need.

As to "all orginal parts" these guns all have been rebuilt by armories at one time or other. They didn't care if they got Remington Parts in a Springfield, or Springfield parts in a Smith Corona. They didn't care because it didn't matter.
 
We had no choice. We were in a depression and the military is the first to get cut. We simple didn't have the guns to out fit an army.

That decision was actually made a little before the Depression, but the timing does not matter. We are always in a financial crisis, money is always short. There are a million and one good excuses to do nothing.

The big scare for the WW1 Army Ordnance Department was the M1917 Enfield. If an adult had been in charge of the War Department, instead of refurbishing the production lines at RIA and SA, they would have been closed down and 2 1/2 million built M1917's would have become the standard service rifle.


The next war will be the same, since we're cutting back our military to pre-WWII levels.

Yupe, we are cutting back big time the number of enlisted, officers, training, military preparedness, and military facilities. Expect to see your tri care go up, if not abolished and the military put into the Obamacare system. A lot of retirees will cry if the class 6 is closed, I have seen many of them pushing shopping carts full of cheap beer and booze for next week's bender. I heard the M1 tank rebuild line at Anniston Army Depot was closed down, M1 tanks rusting under sheds, will probably turn into rust before the next war. The only work going on was rebuilding old American tanks, such as the M60, for paying foreign armies. Anniston is a Government facility, not owned by an Aerospace/Defense Company. However, expect only a light scrubbing to the procurement of new major weapons systems. Massive campaign contributions will keep the procurement budget high, even if there are not enough trained Soldiers to operate the equipment!
 
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Being a collector, I buy for the history. Never heard of a problem with a "Low Number" Mosin Nagant, the ones I have are somewhat crude compared to my M1903s, remember they were made for an army where probably 75% of the soldiers were illiterate, where almost none of the recruits had ever handled a firearm before, and Russian, then Soviet military doctrine saw the rifle mainly as a way to hold a bayonet. I have seen it written about WWI that the Germans had the best hunting rifle, the British the best battle rifle and we had the best target rifle. My understanding of the Low Number problem, based on my reading of Hatcher is that there were some bad production batches all long before WWI. Don't own one so no dog in that fight.
7.62x54R ammo hard to come buy ? A good reason to reload, don't have to worry about corrosive primers.
 
well I'm sure that Kraig and slamfire have already given you enough information to make your head explode, but just in case there's something they missed.
1. they usually run for $700-900 in good to very good condition.
2. how do they shoot? they normally hold better accuracy than mosin nagants but they have the same zero distance so you still have to aim a bit low at 100 yards.
3. quality? they are a much more refined design than the mosin nagant. the bolts are smoother and less rattly, you don't feel like you need a block of wood to knock the bolt open and closed and there are very little, if any tool marks unlike many of the wartime production mosin nagants.

one side note that I've certain has been discussed. if you are getting a true 1903 and not a later MK1, A1, A3 or A4, then stay away from rock island armory made rifles with a serial number lower than 285,000 and springfield made rifles under 800,000. I personally like the A3 the best as an every day shooter.
 
Very true. It's hard to go wrong with an 03A3. As long as the receiver checks out- everything else is quite obtainable.
 
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