M19 & M66 Strength stats or rumors..

L

Lavan

New member
Okay. I have READ for years of the inherent weakness of the K-frame for magnum loads.

What is the FIRST sign of failure? Does anyone have a blown-up gun that blew up from a mag load?

Does the frame stretch? Does the barrel pop off? I guess the cylinder could set back but it seems that the cartridge heads would limit that.

Does the bolt slip the cylinder cuts?

Does the top strap pop?

What unrepairable damage happens?

Any pictures of a failed 19 or 66?
 
I have fired a lot of rounds through my M-66 (one of the first ones with the stainless front sight) and have had no problems with it. Most of the ammo was 125 grain JHP .357 Magnum ammo. I did get a little flame cutting in the top strap where the barrel enters the frame but it stopped after a while, I don't know why the cutting stopped. I think it was because the enough clearance was formed that more cutting did not occure.

Weren't the rumors of K-Frame damage started after the various Ruger ads touting their "stronger" thicker frames?

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
Ive been shooting J frame 66's or 19's along time and heard that rumor for that long.....the reality is possibly that early on the n-frame revolver was the 357 mag., back then the cartridge was loaded considerably hotter than it is now. Went Mr. Jordan convinced s/w to make the J frame 357 mag it was for ease of carry (less weight)....early on, shooting the then std loadings in the J-frames would shoot them out of time and hasten the barrel splitting in the forcing cone area--if you open the cylinder and look at the forceing cone you will the barrel squared there to provide clearance from the cylinder bushing, the later L-frames have eliminated this weakness. Ive not seen a barrel split that I can remember anyway, but other's I know have....the ammo today even the "vaunted" 125jhp federal, is not up to speed with the original loadings....Corbon might be but iM not sure....so even if you were sending only 125gr jhp federal's down range you wouldnt be subjecting the pistol to the same stress as when it first came out.........fubsy.
 
Lavan,

No, nothing quite so dramatic as the gun exploding, or the barrel popping off...

The main problems are related to the cylinder, and cylinder lockup.

One of the first signs is that the cylinder timing is no longer as tight as it once was. That's because the hand, the little gizmo that pushes the cylinder around, and the notches that the hand pushes on, start to peen. Essentially, the notches become larger, and the hand becomes shorter. Essentially, the cylinder goes "out of time" in that just as the hammer starts to drop, the chamber is no longer perfectly aligned with the bore.

This is also intimately connected to cylinder lockup. The cylinder bolt, the little stud that pops up through the bottom of the frame just above the trigger, will also peen and wear, meaning that it no longer holds the cylinder as securely in place when the gun does lock up.

In truly serious cases, the cylinder can "free wheel" or spin without locking up at all.

The other problem point is known as "end shake." This can be tested by grabbing the cylinder with the action closed and trying to move it back and forth toward and away from the barrel. A little movement (like less than the thickness of a business card) is normal. Much over the thickness of a business card, and the gun is developing an endshake condition.

I've seen Smith revolvers that have such severe cases of endshake that it is iffy if the hammer will ignite the cartridge, or just shove the cylinder forward and slightly dimple the primer.

Both situations can be fixed.

If the hand is worn, it is replaced. If the notches are worn, the ejector star is replaced. Both some fine fitting to ensure that timing and lockup are correct.

Installing a new cylinder bolt isn't much trouble either, generally requiring even less fitting, just a little tweeking.

The endshake problem can be more complex, but can be fixed either with special washers that go on the cylinder yoke (available from Brownell's) or through stretching the cylinder axel. The stretching step requires more experience and more tools to do properly.

I've got a Model 19 that has pretty bad endshake. I got it well used, and I've contributed to the problem over the years. I'm going to tackle it this summer, by stretching the cylinder axel.

This never really became a problem with Model 19s until police forces started training regularly with their duty ammo. At one time, most training was done with light .38s, and the gun was rarely fired with full-bore .357s. Then training started to be done with the duty ammo, and the complaints started cropping up a few years after that.
 
Jim,

Ruger simply began capitalizing on a known problem with S&W revolvers. They didn't start a rumor, they just built a gun (Speed & Security Six models) to counter it.

With regard to the flame cutting problem, yes, it is normal for the flame cutting to stop after a certain depth has been reached. That's because the gas pressure/flame temperature is high enough to cut until it gets a certain distances from the origin. When it drops below that threshold, the cutting stops, or dramatically decreases.
 
Fubsy,

Jordan actually had a hand in the development of the K-frame Combat Magnum, which later became the Model 19, not the J-frame.

S&W approached Jordan at the National Matches at Camp Perry in the early 1950s, and asked him for ideas.

Story goes is that he grabbed his Model 15 target revolver from his shooting box and said "Make this gun in .357 Magnum."

When S&W brought it out, he took one of the first production models onto the TV show "You Asked For It" to tout what a great gun it was. Brilliant move for S&W, on all accounts, as the Model 19 quickly became the best-selling center-fire handgun in the United States.

I truly feel that the Model 19 is the single BEST combination of power and handiness ever made for .357.
 
Hi, guys,

Wear on the cylinder stop and hand are normal in any revolver that is fired very much, especially rapidly. Unless the chambers actually expand into the stop notch, this has nothing to do with the power of the load.

Endshake does, since it often indicates frame stretching. In the conventional revolver, firing puts most of the strain on the top strap. That is why it is there, to hold the gun together, and why top break revolvers are limited in power. If a revolver has end shake, it should be carefully checked to make sure that the cause is wear and not stretching of the frame.

The two main problems seen in Model 19s fired with hot loads will be frame (top strap) stretching and barrel splitting, as was already mentioned.

Ruger had to make their frames thicker to achieve roughly the same strength as S&W and Colt, since Ruger's cast frame is not as strong for a given thickness as a forged frame.

Jim
 
Jim,

The point about the cylinder bolt was NOT that the notches are going to become damaged, but that the cylinder bolt itself wears. It is made of a somewhat softer steel than the cylinder so that it will wear before the cylinder, and also because it has to take the cartridges being fired.

I've yet to see a Model 19 with a frame that has been stretched more than a few thouandths, and I've seen a few thouand Model 19s, and worked on nearly 100 more. To stretch the frame appreciably you don't just have to shoot full-bore magnum loads, you have to abuse the living hell out of it.

I did see one example, though, in which the guy had mistakenly loaded 22.6 or so grains of 231 instead of 296...

The topstrap was certainly stretched on that one. Of course, most of the cylinder was missing as well....

I offered the guy $50 for it, but he wanted to keep it as an object lesson. :D
 
Hi, Mike,

On the notches, I was referring to high pressure expanding the chamber and swelling out the cylinder notches. S&Ws do this more often than other makes because the notch is right in the center of the chamber. This is usually the end of the cylinder because cases can't be extracted, but I have seen a few on the edge.

The cylinder stop will wear just from doing its job (you are correct, it is designed to wear out before the cylinder does), but I don't see how the power of the cartridge makes it wear any faster. The stop is pounded by the rotational energy of the cylinder, not by the cartridge firing force.

What usually causes stop and hand damage is that the Model 19 is about the best there is for fast DA, and owners tend to do just that. That kind of shooting raises hob with cylinder stops, hands, and ratchets, even if the ammo is wadcutter. I am no McGivern, but at one time I could get five shots off in about a second with a Model 19, and I replaced a couple of stops and hands and a ratchet. Almost all the ammo was wadcutter. The frame was OK.

I probably have worked on about as many Model 19s as you have and I have seen a few frames stretched and barrel ends split after hundreds (maybe thousands) of rounds of full house .357 loads. Some people are gluttons for punishment, to themselves and to their guns.

Jim
 
Jim,

Sorry, didn't get your meaning about the notches. Yes, I have seen that, too.

As for the cylinder bolt, rotational energy does the most damage, but it is not unusual at all to see the cylinder bolt actually peened from the top down, or actually shortened.

What causes this is that it is spring loaded, and heavy recoil impulse will lash around in the stop notch. If it is too long, (and most of them are a bit too long, the spring loading gives them quite a bit of grace), it will actually slap the bottom of the locking notch with enough force that it will eventually mush down.

And you're absolutely correct about the hand and indexing notches. Most damage is done by rapid fire, especially if the hand is too long.

One of the first things I do with all of my new S&W's, along with the action job, is to ensure that the hand is the proper length. If it's too long, I trim or replace it, as necessary. If it's too short, I'll make a judgment call.
 
Jim and Mike have just done a tremendous job of workin this out. I would like to add a little to their line of thinking.

My 19-3 6" with all Ts has seen many years of heavy service. It is still a tack driver and timing is good but I need to sharpen it up a tad. My 686 2.5" is my carry and I try to drill twice a week with it, It is sick at the moment.

Both guns timing deteriorated, in my opinion, due to rapid firing with impediment to free cylinder rotation. Sometimes with dirty loads, the cyl will start to get stiff and cause wear on the hand, wear on the star, OR BEND THE HAND PIVOT PIN. The 686 has stainless pivot pin and is much easier to bend. In the event of a squib in rapid fire, where the slug is in the throat and preventing rotation, the heavy trigger pull in the heat of battle will bend the pin and the timing is instantly out ( late lock up ) Any time the trigger is hard to pull, after correcting the situation, check the timing.

I'm gettin there guys. If the timing is a little out but not enough to lead your hand or the throat, and you are shooting moderate or higher loads, the chamber pressure is higher than normal AND the additional force is applied toward stretching the frame.

I consider Cor-Bon to be moderate loads. They run their 125gr JHP out at 1450 fps. Winchester loading data sheet runs the same bullet out at 1800 fps with no restrictions on what gun must be used for that load.

Six shots from the concealed leather, on target in 2.8 secs with major power loads requires that the mechanicals be checked regularly.

Cylindar resistance to turning and rate of fire both can affect timing. Out of time = higher pressures and can lead to frame stretch or worse.

Whew......Sam

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
My S&W Model 19 6"(circa 1974) is still in excellent shape. However it does have it's 2nd barrel on it. The 1st barrel was split at the forcing cone and showed serious cratering after approximately 10K hot 357 mag loads. When I was younger all I knew was hot and I duplicated full-house factory when I reloaded. I now shoot a lot of 160 gr LSWCs at about 1040 fps and occassionally 125 JHPs at 1250 fps. My 19 has the smoothest action and is great for DA shooting.

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Mike Irwin,
typo,,,,I know the difference tween j and k's..lol...this durn keyboard is hanging up..I saw were I typed it twice, ...but ya'll straightened it out.....and you gave some good input there...fubsy.
 
There's an interesting article at (www,sixgunner.com/guests.paco.htm) on the .357 in strong guns. I can remember the loads the ammo makers sold in the 50's and early 60's. Then came the 19's, and the early loads did some bad deeds to that light framed revolver. The early ammo was definitely for the "N" frames, and they were highly effective. I still use loads that duplicate those early loads in my "N" frames, but I sure would not use to many of the in the "L" frame regardless of what S&W might say, and I would not use them at all in either a 19 or 66.
Anybody that checks that site out, be advised that Alliant #2400 is faster burning than the Hercules version was. I had to cut my loads by 1.5 grains.
Paul B.
 
Paul,

Some years ago I had the great fun of shooting a bunch of pre-World War II .357 Mag. ammo out of a 6" Model 28, and across a chronograph.

Let's just say that the velocities would make your hair stand on end, as in 158-gr. JHPs approaching 1600 fps! :eek:

Ammo of the bygone age was hotter, no doubt about it.
 
Some here have mentioned flame cutting on the top strap in front of the cylinder. An old master gunsmith gave me a suggestion fro my 66. He told me to thoroughly clean that area, then take a number 2 lead pencil and coat that area with the pencil. He said that in his experience, the covering from the pencil stopped or reduced the flame cutting.

Any one else try that?
 
Raymond,

Hum...

Never heard of that, but I'd guess it could slow it down, at least for a few shots. You'd have to keep recoating it ever few rounds to keep it effective, I would think...
 
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