M1 or AK 47? Help me out please!

4

45automan

New member
Hey guys i was at my gun shop tonight and was looking at some rifles. I saw an AK 47 copy made in Romania with pistol grip stock and all for $599 I have always liked AK's and want one. Now the problem is i saw an M1 and it was sweet fit me nice and had better sights than the AK,better trigger too. It is also a .308 which is better than 7,62 right?
Theguy at the shop says the M1 is a very reliable gun probably on par with the AK and much more acurate at long ranges. The M1 cost a bit more than the AK but I have been saving up for a whilenow soprice is not a problem. How much is .308 in bulk? Are the 20rd mags widely available for these guns?
Thanks,45automan
 
I don't own or want an AK, but if I was looking for a "bullet hose" and had to choose between a Romanian AK or a Chinese (Polytech/Norinco) M-14 copy (which I believe you incorrectly called an M1) I'd pick the AK. He's why.... the Chinese M-14 is a barley passable copy of the American rifle. The Romanian AK will be about as good as any AK ever made (which ain't saying much IMHO). So it comes down to a choice between a bad knockoff or a (relatively) state-of-the-art rifle. Add to this 7.62x39 is cheaper than 7.62x51, and AK mags are plentiful & inexpensive, used M-14 mags cost around $35/ea. I had a Chinese M-14 and sold it. I now have a Springfield M1A and a 95% correct pristine H&R M1 and wouldn't trade either one for any East Block rifle ever made. If you do want a M1 Garand go to the CMP, they'll sell you a good shooter with all USGI parts for $520 delivered. -- Kernel
 
I'd look around for another AK, That price seems high for a Romanian SAR-1. Check the prices out in Shotgun News. I think if I remember correctly I only paid $289 or $299.for mine.That $599 seems high but that could be the going rate in you area
For what tis worth ;)

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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous
 
Look up J&G Sales web site. They are selling AK's in the Russian 22, .223 and 7.62x39 REAL cheap. I've bought two. Nice guns.

The M1 is a different beast altogether.

Buy them both.
 
Yes, the Romanian SARs should run from $250-$300, not $599. That's typical, though, since most folks don't look in Shotgun News or even at www.aimsurplus.com where you can get that rifle, OR get an STG-58 for $529 NOW WE'RE TALKIN' BABY! I have both a really good Kalashnikov variant, and a brand new Springfield M1A. They perform different jobs, but I like both. In all my research, I pretty much discovered that there is much butchery in the used M1 and M1A world, and be careful. However, according to Fulton Armory, the recievers on the Norinco M1A's are forged, and a good starting point for a custom rifle (you'll have to replace everything else)...but NOT for $500!
 
45automan

1. Get an AK while you can. Big Brother is taking the toys away. You can always get an M1 later.

2. That price is way out of line. I bought a Romanian AK-47 NIB about a month ago from a dealer for $360 out the door, including all fees and taxes. That's about what the $300 price other guys here mentioned will end up after shipping and FFL.
 
$599 is way high. AIM has them for $310. Add shipping and transfer and you should come out under $350. I love my AK and wouldn't trade it for anything. Well, maybe for a Barrett =)
 
I'm with Sigmund. Get both. The M1 rocks! As does the AK. By the way, your dealer may be inflated his AK price because of a rumored ban on the Romanian AKs. I paid 309 inlcuding tax on the one I bought three weeks ago. Show him a copy of Shotgun News and ask him to justify his $200 mark-up.
 
According to many who have fought with them and against them, the AK is the most rugged and dependable assault rifle ever made. That said, it has sucky sights and a POS creepy trigger but it goes bang every time you pull the trigger. One billon Chinese can't be wrong!!?? Ever watch the news and see these rusty, non-lubricated POS AK's in a fight? Nobody is struggling, they just keep on shooting. Hackworth tells of finding a buried AK with a 30 rd mam (had been buried along with it's former owner for awhile) and rinsing it off in water and firing the complete mag on in full auto with no problems. Try that with an AR!

I have an upgraded PolyTech M14s and love it. It has fired 6000 rds without a hiccup. They are great rifles with longer range. The ammo is heavier, recoil is heavier. Sights and trigger are much better. Mags are expensive at $35 each.

It really depends on what you want to do with the rifles.

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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken
 
BTW, since the AK sights do suck, you can upgrade to the Kobra collimator sight very, very easily. Now we're havin fun. If you get the AK (or get one for a more realistic price), go to AK-47.com for info on the Kobra, or just e-mail me.
 
the Chinese M-14 is a barely passable copy of the American rifle.

Fulton Armory states about the Chinese knock of the M-14, "The Chinese receivers are dimensionally as good as TRW rifles in the collection of a friend. Period." The rest of the gun is mostly junk but if someone rebuilds a chinese receiver with GI parts the can be good rifles.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/M14S_Eval.htm



[This message has been edited by Alan B (edited September 12, 2000).]
 
What are used Polytechs going for these days? $550 to $650 I'd guess (I paid $399 for mine NIB back in '95, kept it 100% stock and to it's credit put 2,000 rds thru it with amost zero problems). Then spend $400 to $500 to get the receiver heat treated, $50 for a USGI bolt, $$$ to have it headspaced, $300 for a decent barrel, $150 for a decent stock, yadda, yadda, $$$ trigger group $$$$, etcetera, etcetera, gas piston $$$..... and legally it can never have a USGI flash hider even if the bayonet lug is removed. Warranty??? Yeah, right.

So for more money, time, and effort you can have a Chinese rifle that is about as good as a NIB rack grade Springfield M1A. Like I said, it's a barely passable copy. Now, if you could import striped receivers for something around $150 then you'd have the beginnings of a decent and affordable rifle project. I agree, the receivers are okay (once they've been heat treated), it's most every thing else that's junk. -- Kernel
 
45automan:

You mentioned the M-1 rifle, if I read correctly. Originally, they were chambered for the 30-06 round, the M-1 is otherwise known as Garand Rifle. Some were sleeved (navy conversion) to 7.62 x 51mm (308 Win), others were rebarreled. Ammunition feed unchanged, 8 round "enblock", from the top.

As to the 308 being "better" than the 7.62 x 39mm, better for what? Properly set up, with good ammunition (match grade or equivalent handloads), the M-1 rifle, either 30-06 or 308 is useable out to 1000 yards. The AK doesn't come close, but was not intented to. Depends on what one wants.
 
Why cant the Polytech ever legally have U.S. Flashhider?

What if it was made before 94? Also If it has all the required U.S. parts, it should be AWB ok because it doesnt have a PG
 
There are two sets of rules governing the Norinco/Polytech M14 clones, one is the infamous Crime Bill of 1994, which further defined those evil "semi-automatic assault rifle". (yeah, right) The other rule governs the importation of semiautomatic firearms, and "their suitablily for sporting purposes". Hence the butthole thumbstocks and lack of bayonet lugs on all the imported MAK90's, even before 1994, same with the Norinco and Polytech M14's. This is where the "10 of 20" rule comes into play these days, with the replacement of enough parts in a foreign-made semiauto to bring the imported parts down to 10 of 20 listed as per ATF regs. Once the parts count is down, the gun is basically considered "Made in the USA", and can be outfitted with the separate pistol grip furniture, but it must still also comply with the 1994 crime bill provisions. So, pre-1994 Norinco M14's were not allowed to come into the country with bayonet lugs, and as a matter of fact, the flash hiders were dummies, also. Sound confusing? It is. I still read and reread the rulebooks the ATF sent me when I got my FFL.

Now, who was dissing non-Springfield Inc. M14's? I'd be careful, there's plenty of Smith Enterprise and Armscorp owners out there who'd agree to disagree on that point. I ended up building mine after coming way too close to buying a Springfield that should NEVER have gotten past their QA folks...
m14nm.jpg


[This message has been edited by Gewehr98 (edited September 15, 2000).]
 
I believe by law none of the Norinco/Polytech M-14 clones can lawfully ever have a GI type flash hider. It all started with import restrictions targeted specifically against China by the Bush Administration in the late 80's / early 90's, back in the days when the People's Republic had to get approved for Most Favored Nation trading statues every year. A back room deal, sealed with an Executive Order - conveniently short circuiting Congress, due process, and the rule of law.

So it's got nothing to do with Clinton's 1994 "Assault Weapon" ban. It's my understanding that there is no way to "convert" these M-14 clones to legally have a flash hider since they're not subject to the same "number of US parts" loop hole that effects the '94 banned weapons. Though I don't know how strongly this particular wrinkle in the code is enforced. I see used Chinese M-14s (by law they can't be imported anymore in any form) on dealer's tables at gunshows all the time with USGI flash hiders on them. I know it's technically illegal but no one seems to care.

A bit of trivia: why did the Chinese even make a M-14 clone in the first place? It's a niche rifle with limited export appeal. They certainly didn't want it for their own Army. With it's roots firmly entrenched in the John C. Garand's designs of the 1920's the M-14 is a technically difficult and expensive rifle to manufacture, the forged and machined receiver is way more complicated than any military rifle adopted since the late 1930's. So why did they do it? The answer is: Taiwan.

In the 1960's and 70's the M-14 was the issued battle rifle of the Army of Taiwan, they had bought the TRW tooling in the 60's after the US military got out of the M-14 business, and were making there own. Taiwan is China's arch enemy and rival. The Red Chinese were planing to stage a phony revolution to over throw the Taiwanese government. They were going to arm these "revolutionaries" with fake M-14's so it would look on TV like they were defecting Taiwanese troops. They must have been pretty serious about these plans, but for what ever reasons the revolution never came and the Chinese where stuck with thousands of fake M-14's. They held them in storage for several decades, then sold them on the US market when the political climate changed. It's funny to think that these Polytech/Norinco M-14 clones we have are probably all over 30 years old.

So now you know.... the rest of the story. -- Kernel
 
I think I may have confused the issue more than helped, Kernel. I didn't mean to say the '94 Crime Bill was the cause of the missing flash hider on the Norinco/Polytech. The Bush Ban did that, no question about it. What I meant to say was that even if you made use of the "10 of 20" rule (pp 51-52, 2000 Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide), redefining it as an American-made gun to add an extra "evil" feature to the imported semiauto, it would still have to comply with the rules of the later '94 Crime Bill, so the best you could hope to do would be to approximate the postban Springfield Inc, guns. "Muzzle attachments" are indeed part of that list of 20 parts. There's been some debate over whether the threaded muzzle of the M14 type gun should be counted as one of the evil features or not, the letter of the '94 Crime Bill indeed states a flash supressor OR threaded muzzle designed to accomodate a flash supressor (page 7, same reference guide). The M14 uses that threaded muzzle, along with the castle nut, to attach the front sight base, which just happens to be integral with the flash supressor. You could interpret that to say once you got your imported parts count down, you could foreseeably add just a flash supressor, sans bayonet lug, ala post '94 ban Springfields. Truthfully, with a Norinco/Polytech M14 clone, I would go the route of installing a muzzle brake instead, just to avoid any gray areas or possible misinterpretation. Gawd, my head hurts, I can't wait for my 2001 issue from the ATF...
 
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