M1 Carbine does not lock open.

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dahermit

New member
Shot my M1 Carbine today (Winchester), just to get some brass for a handloading experiment.

I have not shot it for so long, that I was somewhat surprised to discover (re-discover), that the bolt (magazine follower angled to be over-ridden) does not lock open on an empty magazine. I don't know of any military arm that closes on an empty magazine.

Why would the designer/military do such with just the .30 M1 Carbine?
 
Only locks open with milsurp 30 round mags. And, I believe, only some of those if the Carbine itself has the hold open. My single 30 rounder used in my Plainfield doesn't hold anything open. Plainfields being exact copies.
"...Why would the..." The Carbine was not designed for nor ever intended to be issued to anybody who would need a bolt hold open.
"...a handloading experiment..." IMR4227 with 110 grain bullets.
 
The Carbine was not designed for nor ever intended to be issued to anybody who would need a bolt hold open.
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That does not make sense to me. For that to be true, the persons who were issued an M1 Carbine would not be expected to ever be under fire...and then would not need a firearm at all. Let be remind you that some D-Day paratroopers were issued M1 Carbines, and they certainly would benefit from a firearm that would indicate to them that the gun had run empty...unless of course, they were accurately counting the fourteen shots in their magazines as they fired them. Imagine a soldier patiently lining up on an enemy and when he finally gets a clear shot, only hears a "click". Whereas with a hold open follower on the magazine, he would have known to swap out his magazine for a loaded one before firing...that is why it should have had one and I do not understand (seems illogical to me), why it does not have that feature in the G.I. fourteen round magazines.
 
I just checked both of my .30 cal carbines, the Winchester locks open
with a 5 round and 20 round magazine. The other .30 cal carbine is a
Plainfield, 5 round Lexon magazine...it does not lock open.
 
I just checked both of my .30 cal carbines, the Winchester locks open
with a 5 round and 20 round magazine. The other .30 cal carbine is a
Plainfield, 5 round Lexon magazine...it does not lock open.
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I also have a five-rounder that will lock back but that is a civilian adaptation for hunting regulations, not G.I. issue. It is the standard 14-round G.I. magazines that were issued during WWII that are the relevant issue.

I have a curved G.I. 'banana clip", carbine magazine, likely Korean War era issue, around here someplace, but I cannot find it to see what type of follower is in that.
 
Stamped follower with hold-open angle won't last long. It will get banged up by the bolt. I have to repair mind several times already.

Magazines that are supposed to be reused would probably be made without hold open. Magazines that are disposable, for combat perhaps, probably don't have hold open angles.

-TL
 
Stamped follower with hold-open angle won't last long. It will get banged up by the bolt. I have to repair mind several times already.

Magazines that are supposed to be reused would probably be made without hold open. Magazines that are disposable, for combat perhaps, probably don't have hold open angles.
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Detachable magazines for military rifles, M16, M14, BAR, SMLE .303, etc. were not "disposable", they were intended to be reloaded, usually with stripper clips. As far as I know, they all had stamped or plastic followers.
 
But none of those followers double as bolt hold-open.
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As far as I know, they all served as bolt hold-open devices. The SMLE for sure, the M14, the O3-A3, several military mausers, etc. They locked open on the last shot, would not close until they were reloaded, either with stripper clips or a loaded magazine was inserted. It was pretty much standard for military small arms...that is why I commented on the .30 caliber Carbine, seemed odd that it does not while the M1 Garand locked open, the .45 1911A1 did also.
 
OK I should have been more specific.

Follower hold-open on bolt guns is fine. The bolt doesn't have return spring to beat on the follower.

Automatic is the problem. They have dedicated bolt catch activated by the follower. The bolt catch is milled so it can take the beating.

M1 carbine doesn't have this sort of bolt catch built in the gun. It has the manual catch though. Some magazine have an angle cut in the follower that can catch the bolt after the first round. It doesn't last long before it got banged out of shape by the returning bolt.

One auto loader that has this sort of follower catch by design. It is the c96 broomhandle. The follower is milled.

Even for bolt guns, last round hold-open followers are not always true. My #1 mark 3 smle doesn't, nor does my Persian Mauser.

I agree it is a good feature to have, but certain designs just don't include it. Revolvers don't.
 
Plenty of firearms of that era didn't have last round hold open. Most SMG's didn't.
The AK doesn't.
And M1 Carbine mags hold 15, not 14 rounds.
 
Persons who were issued an M1 Carbine would previously have been issued a pistol. (Including the Paras. Who were a totally new organization with no proven tactics or anything else. TO&E for 'em was a complete logistics guess.). It's far easier and faster to train a guy who has no previous firearms experience(the idea of the U.S. being a nation of riflemen prior to W.W. I, never mind W.W. II, is a myth) to use a rifle than it is a pistol.
The Carbine was also a brand new thing. Designed entirely to be issued to troopies who would have been issued a pistol. That'd be arty types, rad ops, truck drivers, etc.
"...the G.I. fourteen round magazines..." 15. Not that it matters. Why it should have had a bolt hold open but did not is because it was not intended to be used in front line combat.
 
I just found where I had put my only (all the others are G.I. fifteen rounders), 30 round "banana" clip [Sic; "magazine"]. Looking at (and testing in the carbine), the magazine follower has in fact, the hold open feature. It is my understanding that the 30 round magazines were not used in WWII, but were used in the Korean war. So, it would appear that the "flaw" was corrected after all. The follower is of stamped metal construction, not milled.

I did not buy more than one 30 round magazine because of the loaded weight of a 30 round magazine negates the one advantage the gun possess...nimbleness due to light-weight.
 
I have an IBM GI. The magazine that came with the rifle doesn't hold open. I was so happy when I found some after-market magazines that had this feature; the "flaw" was fixed after all.

After holding open a few dozen times during real shooting, I started to notice the follower becoming more and more sluggish. Eventually it would get stuck in the magazine in a tipping down attitude. I then realized what was happening. I almost went ahead to bump that hold-open angle into a ramp to fix this "new flaw". Then I figured out a way to reinforce the stamped follower. So far it seems holding up.

I wouldn't say this hold-open feature a good fix to the "flaw". At best it is a band aid solution.

-TL
 
Magazines that are supposed to be reused would probably be made without hold open. Magazines that are disposable, for combat perhaps, probably don't have hold open angles.
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Tell us which magazines were considered to be disposable.
 
Most magazines in the U.S. Army were considered expendable. If a soldier could hang onto the magazine, fine, but a soldier in combat was not expected to carefully pick up his magazine after emptying it. Carbine magazines were made by the hundreds of thousands. The original intent was to ship them loaded, but there was concern about springs settting, and the ultimate decision was to issue them freely and issue ammunition in 50 round boxes. (The "stripper" clip and adapter to load the magazine off the gun were late Korean and Vietnam issue.)

BAR, SMG, and carbine magazines were issued to the company level by the case. None were issued loaded, and none could be loaded on the gun; that refinement having to wait for the M14.

The fact is that the carbine was never considered a true combat rifle. It was intended to replace the pistol with a better and more usable weapon. Hence the lack of a rapid magazine change feature (bolt hold open) was of little concern. The follower of the 30-round magazine holds the bolt open when the magazine is empty, but the bolt closes when the magazine is removed unless the bolt is manually retracted and the slide lock depressed.

Jim
 
I don't know of any military arm that closes on an empty magazine.
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You really need to read more.

AK doesn't. G3 doesn't. M1 carbine doesn't. Smelly doesn't. Mosin doesn't. The list goes on, and on, and on and on and on.
 
Interestingly enough, the FAL was originally designed with a bolt holdopen, but the Commonwealth and some other countries removed it so the bolt would close on an empty magazine. I have no idea what the thinking was.

Some countries that used the Mauser bolt actions liked the idea of a magazine follower that blocked the bolt, signalling the soldier that the magazine was empty; other countries rejected the idea and chose followers with a ramp that allowed the bolt to close. The U.S. M1903 could be used either way, depending on the setting of the magazine cutoff. The British Pattern 13/14 and the U.S. Model 1917 had a blocking type follower, but the U.S. issued a follower depressor because the follower interfered with dry-firing training and a "smart" manual of arms.

Jim
 
You really need to read more.

AK doesn't. G3 doesn't. M1 carbine doesn't. Smelly doesn't. Mosin doesn't. The list goes on, and on, and on and on and on.
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Yup, getting old and forgetful. I had a Spanish 7mm Mauser that had the hold open and I though that my SMLE was the same, but sold it years ago...must have forgotten. Anyway, I was trained with the M1 Garand in Basic (1962) and that always locked open with empty...likely left an impression on me.
 
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