Ernest T. Bass
New member
Is the 30 carbine round adequate for defense purposes with a hollow point bullet or would throwing a big rock be more effective?
Ernest T. Bass
Ernest T. Bass
M1 30 Cal. Carbine defensive weapon or toy?
- Thread starter Ernest T. Bass
- Start date
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
Well, a 100-grain or 110-grain bullet at 2,300 ft/sec or so is hotter than a .357's 110-grain at 1,800 or so, isn't it?
An AK round has a muzzle velocity of around 2,300 ft/sec.
A .30-30's 170-grain comes out at 2,200 or 2,300 ft/sec.
Seems to me that 80% of an AK or 2/3 of a .30-30 would be pretty effective--stipulating an expanding bullet. The military round-nose is much less effective as a "stopper"...
FWIW, Art
An AK round has a muzzle velocity of around 2,300 ft/sec.
A .30-30's 170-grain comes out at 2,200 or 2,300 ft/sec.
Seems to me that 80% of an AK or 2/3 of a .30-30 would be pretty effective--stipulating an expanding bullet. The military round-nose is much less effective as a "stopper"...
FWIW, Art
who said "any gun is better than none" personally.. i would NOT wanna get shot by one, though depending on your size and stature I MAY let you heave a rock at me.
I have been looking at carbines as a plinker.. a "fun" gun for the trail or to toss in the jeep that doesn't look as threatening as my .223 AK.
My Dad related a few "horror" stories about the m-1 carbine , but NONE were about the rifles them selves.. they were usually about military stupidity.
Like shooting his marksmanship ribbon with one at 100 yard man sized targets where every hit count.. no matter where it hit. (why do they HAVE a 10 ring then?)
Like being issued a new M2 carbine during the cuban missle crisis with a thirty round bananna clip.. and ONE BULLET which he was told to keep in his pocket. "if you see someone climbing the fence, you will take OUT the Bullet LOAD your rifle and FIRE IT INTO THE AIR to summon MORE smiliarly armed troops" .. lol what an UNfunny joke to my poor dad walking guard duty somewhere in mississippi in the middle of defcon 3.
anyway... ballisticly you SHOULD be able to kill a deer if you use an expanding bullet.. but there are FAR better rifles for that. But say you wanted to like burn 300 rounds of surplus AP and tracer at some tin cans at 100 yards... or have a handy saddle or trail gun.. why not?
Or say you had a mild interest in WW2 reinactments.....
Or you wanted a poor man's "assault rifle"
But REALLY... if you are gonna use it for "defense" I'd load it with expanding bullets (soft points or hollow points), because in FMJ trim the gun did NOT have a rep as a "man stopper" in the way that full power rifle rounds do.
Stay Safe and legal...
Dr.Rob
I have been looking at carbines as a plinker.. a "fun" gun for the trail or to toss in the jeep that doesn't look as threatening as my .223 AK.
My Dad related a few "horror" stories about the m-1 carbine , but NONE were about the rifles them selves.. they were usually about military stupidity.
Like shooting his marksmanship ribbon with one at 100 yard man sized targets where every hit count.. no matter where it hit. (why do they HAVE a 10 ring then?)
Like being issued a new M2 carbine during the cuban missle crisis with a thirty round bananna clip.. and ONE BULLET which he was told to keep in his pocket. "if you see someone climbing the fence, you will take OUT the Bullet LOAD your rifle and FIRE IT INTO THE AIR to summon MORE smiliarly armed troops" .. lol what an UNfunny joke to my poor dad walking guard duty somewhere in mississippi in the middle of defcon 3.
anyway... ballisticly you SHOULD be able to kill a deer if you use an expanding bullet.. but there are FAR better rifles for that. But say you wanted to like burn 300 rounds of surplus AP and tracer at some tin cans at 100 yards... or have a handy saddle or trail gun.. why not?
Or say you had a mild interest in WW2 reinactments.....
Or you wanted a poor man's "assault rifle"
But REALLY... if you are gonna use it for "defense" I'd load it with expanding bullets (soft points or hollow points), because in FMJ trim the gun did NOT have a rep as a "man stopper" in the way that full power rifle rounds do.
Stay Safe and legal...
Dr.Rob
Danger Dave
New member
Don't know what kind of endorsement it is, but the Atlanta LEO with the record for the most kills in the line of duty (29, I think) used an M2 carbine as his weapon of choice.
BTW, the number's high because they sent him after the ones they never thought they'd take alive - like the guy who barricaded himself in his house, then shot (wounded) a woman in his front yard to attract police, then killed the first LEO that arrived...
BTW, the number's high because they sent him after the ones they never thought they'd take alive - like the guy who barricaded himself in his house, then shot (wounded) a woman in his front yard to attract police, then killed the first LEO that arrived...
Where do you get hollowpoints for the M1 carbine? Never seen 'em. Then again, I never really looked.
My wife's grandfather served in the Army in the Pacific and according to him, the M1 carbine didn't really have that bad of a rep, in fact, it was the Garand everyone was trying to get rid of. Too heavy and you couldn't see 50 yds into the jungle anyway, so the extra range was a waste and the added weight really got to you in the heat. He was part of the "Bushmasters," an Arizona National Guard unit that was used almost as a Special Forces unit. They were the only unit specifically requested by MacArthur for the front. You WWII buffs might be interested in their history.
I wouldn't hunt with one, but there's actually a lot to reccomend it as a home defense weapon, especially if you can find hollowpoints for it.
My wife's grandfather served in the Army in the Pacific and according to him, the M1 carbine didn't really have that bad of a rep, in fact, it was the Garand everyone was trying to get rid of. Too heavy and you couldn't see 50 yds into the jungle anyway, so the extra range was a waste and the added weight really got to you in the heat. He was part of the "Bushmasters," an Arizona National Guard unit that was used almost as a Special Forces unit. They were the only unit specifically requested by MacArthur for the front. You WWII buffs might be interested in their history.
I wouldn't hunt with one, but there's actually a lot to reccomend it as a home defense weapon, especially if you can find hollowpoints for it.
My Uncle was just here on vacation and we dug out the 45 Auto, M1 and M1 Carbine as thoes were his issue weapons during the Korean war. He has not seen either of those weapons since he got out of the Marines, he went all the way up to the Yula river and back with a M1 Carbine.
Think he would say that they are no toy.
OOps it was the M2 carbine not the M1 carbine my Uncle carried in Korea, me so silly
[This message has been edited by Joey (edited September 16, 1999).]
Think he would say that they are no toy.
OOps it was the M2 carbine not the M1 carbine my Uncle carried in Korea, me so silly
[This message has been edited by Joey (edited September 16, 1999).]
The old M-1 carbine is no toy, but it is fun to shoot. Ballistically, I don't think much of it; however, my Dad, a Korean War Vet (82nd Air Borne Rakasons), sent his share of N. Korean's and Chinese to the promised land using the full auto M-2. He still thinks its one of the best firearms ever made. I'd choose a different rifle for self defense, but then I've never carried one in combat.
OB-1, I think it has a lot to do with the military training they went through and then using the weapon to save your life and those lives of your friends. Until my Uncle saw these weapons I've never herd him say 2 words about Korea, now I know a little of the hell he went through.
For me the 92FS Beretta and AR15A2 have a warm fuzzy spot that will never go away.
For me the 92FS Beretta and AR15A2 have a warm fuzzy spot that will never go away.
Rocky Road
Retired Screen Name
(Another long-winded one, guys--sorry.)
Uh--Art--Gotta call TILT on your reply--
I've chron'd several factory .30 USC loads, and none went as much as 2,000 out of my old Inland carbine. I understand that in different barrels, your mileage may vary, etc.
Just checked the Speer #12 manual, and they don't show any loads at all with the 110 gr. bullets which reach 2,000. Their MAX is with 15 gr. of 296 powder, magnum primer, your choice of the 110 FMJ, SP or HP, for 1981 fps. They say their values are from an 18 inch bbl. I thought the military carbines were 16 inch, but could be wrong. I'm too lazy to dig mine out of the safe and measure it. NOPE! Small Arms of the World shows 18 inch as standard. Sorry.
The factory loads I chronographed included Win 110 HP, some Hornady--I think SP but it may have been HP-- and some Lake Cities 52 military. I note that I've read lately that there was a HUGE amount of "LC52" ammo loaded during the 1960s for US aid to S. Vietnam. I don't know if this was some kind of tactical/strategic/black ops ruse, or if there was just a lot of empty Korean War-era brass left in storage. Doesn't matter anyway.
The velocities quoted makes the .30 USC a less-than-sporting proposition for deer-size game, in my opinion. But, the question had to do with the carbine as a defensive weapon.
In that light, it is not bad--In the late 60s, a lot of cops were convinced that the 110 gr. .357 mag load, at about 1400 (published velocities--pretty overrated, actually) with the first reliably expanding factory bullets, was considered pretty hot stuff.
And a few deer were killed with it. Most nowadays figure this set of ballistics is WAY too light for deer.
Now, think--The .32-20 was long thought to be an adequate defensive cartridge. And it is still a heap more load than the .32 H&R mag. It was a lot lighter than .30 USC. At close range--real defensive distances--the ability to precisely place the little 110 grain pill would probably do quite well.
Most of the above replies included some personal anecdote, so here's mine, second hand though it is--
When I was a teenager, our Methodist preacher told a little of his war experiences, prior to getting The Call. He was a young company commander and went ashore at Omaha Beach on D-Day, armed with a .45 pistol and a M1 carbine. He said they weren't very far off the beach before the inadequate power of the carbine was proven to his (dis)satisfaction. He picked up an M1 RIFLE and sighted it in. He knew about shooting, and felt that the open country of Normandy seemed to demand power and accuracy more than light weight and handiness.
ETB-- If you have a .30 Carbine, it should serve close range defensive purposes well. Ammo's not cheap, but costs a lot less than most centerfire long gun fodder. Keep it clean, practice, etc. I'd a lot rather be missed by a .44 mag than hit with a .30 USC.
Best regards--
RR
------------------
---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---
Uh--Art--Gotta call TILT on your reply--
I've chron'd several factory .30 USC loads, and none went as much as 2,000 out of my old Inland carbine. I understand that in different barrels, your mileage may vary, etc.
Just checked the Speer #12 manual, and they don't show any loads at all with the 110 gr. bullets which reach 2,000. Their MAX is with 15 gr. of 296 powder, magnum primer, your choice of the 110 FMJ, SP or HP, for 1981 fps. They say their values are from an 18 inch bbl. I thought the military carbines were 16 inch, but could be wrong. I'm too lazy to dig mine out of the safe and measure it. NOPE! Small Arms of the World shows 18 inch as standard. Sorry.
The factory loads I chronographed included Win 110 HP, some Hornady--I think SP but it may have been HP-- and some Lake Cities 52 military. I note that I've read lately that there was a HUGE amount of "LC52" ammo loaded during the 1960s for US aid to S. Vietnam. I don't know if this was some kind of tactical/strategic/black ops ruse, or if there was just a lot of empty Korean War-era brass left in storage. Doesn't matter anyway.
The velocities quoted makes the .30 USC a less-than-sporting proposition for deer-size game, in my opinion. But, the question had to do with the carbine as a defensive weapon.
In that light, it is not bad--In the late 60s, a lot of cops were convinced that the 110 gr. .357 mag load, at about 1400 (published velocities--pretty overrated, actually) with the first reliably expanding factory bullets, was considered pretty hot stuff.
And a few deer were killed with it. Most nowadays figure this set of ballistics is WAY too light for deer.
Now, think--The .32-20 was long thought to be an adequate defensive cartridge. And it is still a heap more load than the .32 H&R mag. It was a lot lighter than .30 USC. At close range--real defensive distances--the ability to precisely place the little 110 grain pill would probably do quite well.
Most of the above replies included some personal anecdote, so here's mine, second hand though it is--
When I was a teenager, our Methodist preacher told a little of his war experiences, prior to getting The Call. He was a young company commander and went ashore at Omaha Beach on D-Day, armed with a .45 pistol and a M1 carbine. He said they weren't very far off the beach before the inadequate power of the carbine was proven to his (dis)satisfaction. He picked up an M1 RIFLE and sighted it in. He knew about shooting, and felt that the open country of Normandy seemed to demand power and accuracy more than light weight and handiness.
ETB-- If you have a .30 Carbine, it should serve close range defensive purposes well. Ammo's not cheap, but costs a lot less than most centerfire long gun fodder. Keep it clean, practice, etc. I'd a lot rather be missed by a .44 mag than hit with a .30 USC.
Best regards--
RR
------------------
---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---
M1 carbine, Definitely Not a toy.
My grandfather carried one on Guam during wwII, and said he liked the fact that the carbine was so light. And apparently you didn't shoot at the enemy on that island until you were basically on top of them or vice versa , so the 400 yard shots just never happened.
Having said that from what i gather from pap in a near fight condition the Thompson was a man's best friend. The only problem was every Marine wanted one and they didn't have enough to go around.
Bottom line if you put that 110 grain .30 cal bullet in the right spot, the target/ enemy/ burglar/ whatever your current bad guy of the day is wont know the difference.
[This message has been edited by orsogato (edited September 23, 1999).]
My grandfather carried one on Guam during wwII, and said he liked the fact that the carbine was so light. And apparently you didn't shoot at the enemy on that island until you were basically on top of them or vice versa , so the 400 yard shots just never happened.
Having said that from what i gather from pap in a near fight condition the Thompson was a man's best friend. The only problem was every Marine wanted one and they didn't have enough to go around.
Bottom line if you put that 110 grain .30 cal bullet in the right spot, the target/ enemy/ burglar/ whatever your current bad guy of the day is wont know the difference.
[This message has been edited by orsogato (edited September 23, 1999).]