M 91/30 and fixed bayonet

Coyote WT

New member
At the rifle range Friday another 91/30 shooter told me that the initial sighting from the factory was done with fixed bayonet. He suggested that shooting with the bayonet attached might give me a truer sight picture.

Now, I understand that I've only shot this rifle twice and will take all of the responsibilty in not being as accurate as I hope to become based on my current level of training and experience. This is not a "it's my rifle's fault I can't shoot a dime at 100 yards" post.

This does raise a couple questions though.

First, does this claim have any merit at all or was someone blowing smoke?

Second, is there a standard etiquette regarding bayonets at a public rifle range?
 
First. This applies to the M44 which has a permanently attached bayonet, not the 91/30. Folding or extending the bayonet on the M44 will usually change the point of impact. Never heard of it affecting the 91/30.
Second. Yes, it is considered bad form to stick someone with your bayonet because it is quite painful and it also means you have the muzzle pointed at them. Most people don't like that.
 
This "spring" quarter of the GCA (Garand Collector's Assn) had an article on shooting the M1 with bayonets attached. Whether it shot high or low depended on the bayonet.

To tell whether the bayonet affects the impact of your Mosin, just try it. Shoot a group w/out the bayonet, and shoot a group w/ the bayonet.

As for use at ranges, that would depend on your range and their rules. Check with the Club or Range Officials.

As far a competition; CMP GSM Vintage Rifle Rule 6.3 .1 (3) "The rifle must conform to weight and dimensions specifications of the standard-issue service rifle. Weights including bayonets, may not be attached or added to the rifle"

If your rifle shoots high, I would recommending correcting the problem so that the rifle can be fired w/out the bayonet. This can be done with out changing the rifle from and 'ass issued' condition.
 
LarryNTX and kraigwy

Thank you both for the feedback. I'm not sure why people would have a problem with bayonet practice if the chamber flag was in but (shrug) some people can be sensative that way ;).

Right now I do not have enough control of trigger squeeze, sight picture and breathing to get a good accurate shot group because I've only fired 60 rounds out of it in two separate sessions. I wouldn't be able to confidently say whether or not I'm hitting consistantly high or low.

Thanks again guys. Once again I get valuable and entertaining feedback.

Coyote WT
 
Hang one of those little signs that say"Bang" off of it. Or a red flag like the ones used if the payload is hanging too far out of the back of the truck.
 
At the rifle range Friday another 91/30 shooter told me that the initial sighting from the factory was done with fixed bayonet. He suggested that shooting with the bayonet attached might give me a truer sight picture.

The Brits issued No 4 Mk1* with two position rear sights. You were supposed to add the socket bayonet for inbetween ranges.

Which I tried but the rifle was not accurate enough to really tell if anything had changed at 100 yards.

I suspect adding a bayonet to your Mosin won't help group size as it flops around during recoil.

Might change point of impact.

I would leave it off. Makes the rifle so long that it is easy to accidental stick things and people .
 
I know Russian and then Soviet practice was not to issue bayonet scabbards
but to keep the bayonet on the rifle at all times.
 
The only Mosin you need to worry about the bayonet with is the M44. The M44 is meant to be shot with the (permanently affixed) bayonet extended. That is where the other shooter got that information. Your M91/30 is completely okay to shoot without the bayonet. In fact, I don't suggest ever putting that bayonet on, it's a real beast to get back off once it's on. I ended up having to use copious amounts of grease and a heat gun to get the bayonet off of mine after putting it on. I won't make that mistake twice. ;)
 
SIGSHR said:
I know Russian and then Soviet practice was not to issue bayonet scabbards but to keep the bayonet on the rifle at all times.

This is also what I've heard and read. Russian and then Soviet doctrine regarding the 91/30 was to keep the bayonet fixed at all times except during transport in trucks, boats or trains.
 
I can confirm that it does make a difference on my m44, undoubtedly. My Dad has several 91/30s which he regularly uses in conjunction old spam-can ammo to outshoot guys with modern scoped rifles. He doesn't use the bayonet. :-)
 
The "does the bayonet really matter" question comes up quite often. Here, I'm quoting myself from a previous post:

FrankenMauser said:
All Mosins should wear three to four proof marks for accuracy and barrel proofing, all on the barrel shank.

The standard stamps are: (some variations can be found)
1. Provisional Black Powder (earlier models).
The Cyrillic letter "Pe" inside an oval. Pe looks similar to the greek "Pi".
2. Final Black Powder Proof (all models).
The Cyrillic letter "Che" inside an oval. Che looks like a "Y" - in this case, with a tail.
3. Point of Aim Accuracy Proof (all models).
The Cyrillic letter "Ka" inside an oval. Ka looks just like a "K".
4. Final Accuracy Proof (all models).
Concentric "0"s. A "0" inside a concentric oval.

Those last two, Point of Aim and Final Accuracy, were done with the bayonets installed, and/or extended.

That last line is the key.
All Mosins that had the capability of accepting or extending a bayonet, had them installed for accuracy testing. These rifles were tuned to be shot with the bayonets affixed/extended .

It goes a bit farther than that, though. Bayonets are serially matched to each, individual rifle. They were matched (and/or machined) for a tight fit, to avoid accuracy issues with a loosely-mounted accessory hanging off the barrel.

With the bayonet removed from your 91/30, you'll probably see a point of impact shift. If you don't plan to shoot it with the bayonet always installed (as the Russians designed it to be), you'll probably have to adjust or modify the sights.
 
Can the bayonet on a Mosin-Nagant rifle be fixed in a reversed position? I swear I've seen them that way. If so, it would help solve the problem, though at the cost of looking a little strange. I also know the fit is tight, based on experience with one (1) rifle.

On a side note, the issue scabbard for Cossack sabers (shaska?) had a fitting to hold the bayonet, though the bayonet blade, if you would call it that, was bare. But I've never seen carried that way in a wartime photograph. The Cossacks had their own way of doing things and still do.
 
The M44 has a permanently attached bayonet that folds to the side. That's probably what you're thinking of. With the M44 you have to extend the bayonet for the sights to be on target.

m44hardlaminateed.jpg
 
Can removing the bayonet from my M44 cause it shoot way right? If I put my bayonet back on (I actually already did) can this help my accuracy? I don't plan on shooting it with the bayonet out.
I've read several posts on this, but so far none have told me if replacing a bayonet that's been removed could fix the problem.
I could be a week or so before I can get back to the range, so I was just wondering if I'm on the right track.
 
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