m-16

x3m

New member
ok since my last post seemed to tick everybody off let's just reword it a little

and please , if you are not a vietnam veteran just keep your comments for the other posts , I want specific input here.

Was the m-16 a bad idea in that theatre of war or was it simply put in without propper testing and modification. Given a choice what would the soldiers on the ground have prefered ?
another thing I would like to know is , would you say that the m-16 manufacturers learned a lot in vietnam ?

I ask this question from the viewpoint that soldiers ( all soldiers not just american ) always seem to get a gun that the politicians like instead of what would do the job.
 
Look at the M16 and what it has become today. If you need any evidence that lessons were learned there it is. Also dont lay all the blame at the feet of the politicians in the case of the M16. Robert McNamara played a big part in adopting the M16 as he beleived in a "universal concept" when it came to some weapons sysytems. The weapon was rushed to the field without proper cleaning equipment or training on cleaning it.

You then had powder problems plus unlike the M14 there was no chrome lined barrel or chamber. Which was probably a must for a climate of that type to prevent problems if there was a lack of operator maintenance. The buffer system was fixed and the barrels were chrome lined. cleaning equipment and training was started and new cleaning solvents/lubricants were made available. By 1968 there had been improvement.

Sometimes the Services are their own worst enemy. I remeber the Gamma Goat which was supposed to be "Soldier Proof"... it wasnt. So dont lay the entire blame at the doorstep of politicians. The Services tell Congess what they want a lot of times and Congress approves it.
 
Last edited:
IBT second lock.
I think it had to do with "politics" screwing up the original design ie:- no cleaning kits and the wrong powder
 
Add no chromed chamber, reduced powder charge (of the same wrong powder), erroneous claims by the fanatical advocate faction that the rifle was "self-cleaning" and a host of McNamara's ops analysis whiz kids w/ MBAs who had never fired a weapon before (much less in anger) and you had a perfect storm.

True battle rifles are not/can never be be ordinary rifles.

.
 
Last edited:
m16 longevity

The M-16 and it's variants have served the military for 50 years, it had teething problems (but research original comments about the Garand if you think it's alone in that regard and note that the M-1 was redesigned after it got into the field and it had lubrication problems in the extreme cold in Korea).

And why would you want to limit comments on the M-16 to Viet Nam vets who only used the rifle in it's first few years? The M-16 has been in service for almost 50 years! Longer than either the '03 or M-1 as a main battle rifle.
 
Guys, x3m is asking a specific series of questions:

If you are a VietNam veteran, what's your take on the effectiveness of the M16?

If you are a VietNam veteran, would you have prefered another rifle? Why?

If you're a VietNam veteran, what do you feel were the 'take-aways' from the experience of soldiers in the feild who were issued the M16? What did those manufacturers learn?


I see no reason for a lock unless TFL members drive the boat over the falls. Give some vets a chance to reply to x3m please
 
You might try this. Probably a bit biased since it is on a M14 forum, but first hand info from veterans of VN, Iraq, and the 'stan, nonetheless. You're probably not going to get a plethora of info unless you look at some sites specific to the weapons used there. The two main infantry rifles used in VN were the M14 and the M16, so maybe look at some boards dedicated to those weapons if you want more info on actual use in VN.

Jason
 
I was not a fan of the M-16 back in my day, but it didn’t “loose the war” at all.
I will give you the best overview of what really happened, ----that I have come up with anyway

I do this in a parable.

Lets say you have a 12 year old sister. She’s a dear sister to you, and you want to protect her. There are 2 bullies that go to school with her. They want to rape her, and they assault her every day. So you go to the school and find out that those 2 bullies are not 12 year olds themselves, but young strong men. You stand in their way and you fight them. They are not easy to beat, but you do neat them every time you fight them, but every time you fight them, your boss makes you disengage after you beat them and they get time to go back to their homes and heal up and get ready for the next fight. YOU are never allowed to beat them to a point that they could not fight you again.
In several years you 12 year old sister is now an adult. But you find out that she’s gotten tired of the fights, and so she becomes their prostitute, and gives then any kind of sex, any time they want it.

Do you still keep fighting for her?

NO!

You go home!


That’s how the US Army and the US Marines won every battle but “lost’ the war.
We didn’t loose. South Viet Nam did, and they surrendered.

They were never going to be the “51st state”. So what reason was there to stay after 1975?
None !!!

The M-16 had nothing to do with Hanoi, Washington or Saigon, and the dirt that goes on behind closed doors

Now the M-16 and its ammo have come a Looooooooooooong way from the ones that were fielded in the early to mid 60s. I now love my AR-15s and they work very well, are quite reliable and super accurate.
I would not want one of the old ones with the old ammo, but that doesn’t have a lot to do with the current issues and the current ammo which is available now days.

Just as the AK-47 was the weapon of our enemies, it has nothing to do with the politics of then or now. The AK is not “evil” any more then the handgun you own is evil. “Gun Control advocates” want us to associate intent and politics with guns, and there is no connection. None is attached to the AK or to the M-16 directly. Evil is evil. Good is good.

I am old enough to remember the bad examples of the M-16 system well, and I am happy to say that probably 95% of the old complaints are now past. There is no “perfect weapon” but in my opinion, the new AR-15 in the 6.8 SPC cartridge is as close as we have seen so far. That’s quite a statement from a man that used to detest the M-16.
 
Was the m-16 a bad idea in that theatre of war


Still is a bad idea:

A. Should have been 2 inches shorter (18 inches)
B. Should have had the 4 position stocks.
C. Should have been in 6mm, 243 or 6.5.
D. Should have had a compensator instead of a flash suppressor.
E. Should have had the 3 round burst option and full auto.
F. Should have used a 65 or 75 grain bullets.
G. Should have had a 1:9.25 twist.
H. Should have come with steel core bullets.
I. Should have had a stronger barrel (bull) or at least a heavier profile.
J. Should have come with better sights or optics 2x or 3x power.
K. Should have come with a crome lined barrel.
L. Should have had a larger buffer tube and spring to take up more recoil faster follow up shots.

While as a civilian you can correct a lot of these issues the army is still issuing them in 5.56 which in my opinion is still a poor caliber to use unless you have no other choice.

Jim
 
@ Chris B

thank you , that is extactly what I want to know. You do a have way with my words :D I would just like to add that I am not american , don't have a lot of knowledge of the vietnam war or the US military except from what is sometimes shown on tv. But I have seen a lot of people complaining about this rifle and was wondering why the armed forces put up with it if it was/is not really that good.
 
Last edited:
May I suggest another forum for your research?

www.jouster.com , it's owned by a Retired Marine.

There are several articles written by him about the m16, as he was a field commander and a ballistitian by degree.

Also locate the book, "Operation Buffalo" about the Con Thien situation, there are specific examples of the m16.
 
wondering why the armed forces put up with it if it was/is not really that good.

Basically because of money, spare parts, training, store of lots of ammo, availability and price of copper, lead, aluminium, chrome, time it takes to cast uppers and lowers, cost of labor, standard for NATO and all of our Allies, unwillingness to change, no more cold war.

The AR is not all that bad a platform, it is light weight, reliable if kept clean and accurate and can be altered and changed in a matter of miniutes has a lot of accessories can put out a lot of ammo in a short time (fire power). Only down side is the 5.56 cartrage, but that can be fixed easly with a barrel/chamber exchange and new mags. And it is cheaper to shoot than anything else out there except for 22LR.

Jim
 
I am a Vietnam "Combat" Vet. (2/502 Inf, 101st Abn Div. 67-68).

I used the M16A1 in ground combat in Vietnam.

Now a little of "my" background. I entered the Army in July 1966. Attended Basic and AIT using the M14. Right out of Jump School I was sent to the 82nd Abn Div, which at the time were using the M14. I never had a problem with the M14, qualified the first time and every time after with the M14.

When I got my orders for Vietnam, we were taken to the range for familiarization with the M16. We were suppose to go through the whole gaggle, zeroing, engaging targets, etc etc. But being the young paratroopers we were, and not having much experience with full auto rifles, we just let her rip, shooting every round we could get "full auto". Didn't learn much but we had a heck of a lot of fun.

So after a leave I was off to Never- Never land. There again we went through an indoctrination with the M16. Only being scared poop less, we paid a bit more attention.

I had heard rumors about the M16, lack of cleaning supplies, etc etc. So I took my own cleaning equipment.

It didn't take me long at all to realize there wasn't a damn thing wrong with the M16A1. It was light, fast, and RELIABLE. I never had a problem with mine in Vietnam (or my years of service since).

Most all of the 'A1s I've seen were General Dinamic, and a few colts. What I really liked was the weight, and the weight of the ammo, I carried a basic load of 460 rounds. No way I could carry that much 308. I know, I carried a M-60 for a period, a 50 round assualt belt, plus an additional 400 rounds. 308 '60 ammo weights 11 lbs per hundred.

The way we worked, we went to the field for months at a time, getting re-supplied about every 5-7 days. You wasn't always sure you could get a re-supply of ammo or not so I like carrying as many rounds as I could. Taking into account we had to carry other equipment, LAWs, gernades, 7 days rations, 5 courts of water, extra MG ammo, radio batteries, etc etc. Weight matters when infantry WALKS.

As for reliability, THEY WORKED. I don't recall hearing any proplems about the failings of the M16a1 until years later when the internet came about.

They were accurate. I never had any problems hitting a man size target to 450 yards.

Like anything else, a heavy dose of full auto fire could give any rifle problems, That's why you see so many pictures of Vietnam soldiers (infantrymem) with little plastic bottles of LSA on their helmet. If we got into an extended firefight, as it progressed we'd squirt the LSA onto the bolt and bolt carrier. But it would take a lot of rounds full auto before that was necessary. In reality, in extended firefights, (and we had them that lasted all night), you didn't fire that many rounds.

I was in some pretty nasty mud and stuff, the silt from rice paddy mud gets into everything. There was no way to keep it out. Just remove the big chunks and the A1s would go.

I don't know about the politics of the gun, and I don't care, it saved my life more then once and never failed me. Nor did I see it fail any one else. My 'A1 got me my CIB and got me home.

There are some things I thought needed changed and that was done with the 'A2, mainly the 3 round burst, the the ability to make elevation changes on the rear sight.

One change I didn't like was removing the three prong flash hider. The 3 prong hider allowed us to use it as a wire cutter to cut the wire on C-Rat cases. Couldn't do that with the bird cage hider. We had enough crap to carry without carrying wire cutters. Of course that was changed with the new bayonet.

I do like the faster twist barrel of the 'A2, allowing for heavier bullets and shooting long range. This didn't come into play for me until after I got into the NG and started shooting competition.

The M193 (55 grn ball) worked great for Vietnam, most of the combat was under 300 yards. Seldom did we need to shoot farther. The 'A1 would work, up to about 450 yards. You have to under stand that the average range of the Vietnam snipers was just a bit north of 400 yards.

I just (a couple weeks ago) did an interview for a guy who was writing a book about the weapons of the Vietnam war. I relayed the info above and he told me that was about the same story he got from other INFANTRYMEN from Vietnam. Prior to the interview I called my brother. He did a tour with the 173 Abn Bde and 1st Cav. His experience with the M16 was the same as mine.

I had no problems with the M16A1, if I was to go back to SE Asia, I would have no problems picking the 'A1 as my primary weapon. If I was to go to the desert, I'd want the 'A2.

As an unrelated side note, I joined the Alaska NG in 1973, retired in 1992. I used the M16a1 quite a bit in the Arctic. It also works quite well in sub-zero temps. I'm talking as much as 70 below.

I also never had a problem putting down bad guys with the M193. In fact it was the round I picked for my Counter Sniper Rifle when I was in LE. Only it was out of a bolt gun. Extended range would be better for competition, or Afghan but for the jungle, or Urban LE, it works.

While in the the guard, I shot Combat Rifle Matches where we used the arms room M16A1 and the M193. We shot 100, 200, 300 & 400, they were quite accurate at those ranges.
 
Basically we were told (served in Vietnam 65-66) they wanted a light weight short carbine made for jungle work and the ability of carrying a greater amount of ammo,other benefits were wounding not killing the idea was it took 2 or more men to help a wounded comrade.

I fired my rifle only in routine training had a non-combat job, mine never failed, it was an accurate rifle I normally shot a score of 295 out of 300(not bad for open sights can't do that today;))had to bump it on the floor hard some mornings to have bolt open looking back we were not trained on needed maintenance.

I enjoy shooting my AR accurate fun easy to maintain, if I were in combat I would prefer the a 308,243,30-06, etc, however like all tools the M16 does a great job when used if you know the limitations, no rifle can be consider or should be thought of as good for all jobs.
 
That's why you see so many pictures of Vietnam soldiers (infantrymem) with little plastic bottles of LSA on their helmet.

:D I always wondered what the hell that little bottles was for

I want to thank all of you so far , your comments are enlightening to say the least , please feel free to add some more.:D
 
Kraigwy, that was an EXCELLENT post and very enlightening...especially from the perspective of an infantryman who actually experienced the transition from M14 to M16.

And, THANK YOU for your long and dedicated service to this country.

PS I always thought those little bottles had bug repellant in it!!
 
I always thought those little bottles had bug repellant in it!!

Some was carried on the helmet also. The insect repellant mixed with C-Ration peanut butter was used to heat rations and coffee water.
 
Kraigwy, thank you for your service to this county. Also, thank you for the long, informative post. I learned a few things!
 
Back
Top