Low-Tech Love

B

Bella

New member
Most police agencies have gone from revlovers to semi-automatics. Most of today's armies use some sort of self-loading rifle. Civilians seem to also prefer the convience of a gun that doesn't need to be manually operated for every shot. Look at the popularity of AR type rifles over the last few years. They even come in big game calibers now. Deer hunting with an AR is becoming more acceptable.

Why is then that semi-auto shotguns don't seem to get the same respect?

I use a self-loading scattergun. I enjoy the reduced pounding that my shoulder gets. But whenever I go hunting, it seems that pump shotguns are as popular, if not more popular, then semi-autos. You go to a pistol range and you do see revolver shooters. But most of the lanes are taken up by pistol shooters.

Please explain why shotgunners have such affection for a low-tech weapon.
 
Priorities, cost.

I don't see many pumps at the clay range, but a few of my friends use them for bird hunting. In their cases, bird hunting is not a priority, so a reasonably priced pump suits them fine; although these same guys have expensive rifle/scope setups for big game hunting.

I have a 20 gauge pump for dove, but mainly use my 2 Beretta semi's for waterfowl, dove and clay shooting...my priorities.
 
I think there are several reasons.

1. Pump shotguns work very well.

2. You only get to hunt with 3 rounds and shoot skeet/trap with 1 or 2 rounds in the gun. So, a semi auto is not as big an advantage as say if you were shooting 8 rounds in a 3 gun match...or if you were in a self defense scenario.

3. Price. This is probably the biggest reason. A quality semi auto such as a Benelli, Beretta or Browning costs significantly more than a pump. If you are relatively new to shotgunning, most folks are not going to opt to pay on the order of $1,000 or more when a pump will work just fine.

I am with you in terms of preferring a semi auto over a pump. But, I must admit that when I shoot my old Winnie 1300, working the action takes me back to my younger years (when I didn't have enough money to buy a semi auto...LOL!!).
 
From the LE side, COST, MAINTANCE, versatility and a unwavering belief in the axiom "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

You may be over generalizing, in both the "low-tech" and the exclusiveness of the pump gun.

About 25 years ago I wrote a article for a obscure west coast tactical magazine entitled:What's Wrong With the Benelli M-1 Super 90 Shotgun? Here are some excerpts that might be of interest.

1. The most serious problem with the Benelli lays between our ears
It is not a pump! Please don't take this statement lightly. Most of us are more comfortable with pump shotguns, we want self-loaders, but we trust pumps. This same mixture of 'wants' vs. trust must have occurred in 1937 when the first M-1 Grands came into service replacing the exceptional 1903A3. The transition of Law Enforcement from revolver to self-loading pistols consumed reams and reams of paper bitching or praising, for and against, one or the other. LETS FACE IT FOLKS, our minds don't change easily!
It's not a pump, it's a self-loader simply means that we must condition our minds to except the fact that the gun uses mechanical energy "other than our arms" to operate. This is a fact, and it denies us the ability to jam the bolt open or closed by sheer force of " will and arm". This fact denies us the mental comfort of slamming our 870 fore-end home with authority and "knowing" its in-battery, and also, the immediate body alarm that goes off when the fore-end abruptly stops somewhere else.
With the self-loader we think that we can never be sure that it will fire when we need it and we won't know about it until it's too late. This is a false notion, there are easy ways to immediately prove 'in-battery' with this weapon.

3. It demands Periodic Maintenance Service (PMS), to prevent ****-Poor Mechanical Function (P-PMF) I am not suggesting that pumps don't require PMS, they do. I am suggesting that PMS in the Benelli is paramount to its operating reliability. I am also emphatically stating that if you do not perform good periodic maintenance service on this weapon, you will experience mechanical failure. If it's your weapon and your life, shoot only superior factory rounds and best clean your SCATTERGUN.
My rule of thumb is that each time I am done firing the Benelli I will remove the barrel and clean at least the chamber, pull the RAT, clean the bolt face and under the extractor head, and wipe down the inside of the receiver (don't forget the receiver rails). This is a minimum, must do, to prevent P-PMF. You can not be lazy, you can not say tomorrow, just do it!
Remember, in the middle of the gunfight, no matter how strong your ARMS are, forcefully racking the fore-end will not make up for poor PMS of this weapon and that's guaranteed!

So Bella, as you can see this question has been around for awhile, and is STILL a good one.

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
For hunting, my first choice will always be an o/u for a couple of reasons:

1. Safety. It is very easy to see if your hunting partner(s) guns are safe when in a dangerous situation.

2. Game warden friendly. When crossing roads or other restricted areas, it's a breeze to open the breech and remove the shells. Warden can tell from distance if I'm in compliance with the regulations.

For home protection it will always be a pump shotgun in addition to the pistols. It's been written many times but still hold's true, the sound of a pump action is universally recognized.
 
Funny - where I go hunting, neither the pump or semi are seen - it is the O/U and SxS that are prevalent. On the clay courses, again, no pumps are to be seen and only 30% shoot semis.......O/U rule the day
 
the pump vs auto debate is a lot like the revolver vs auto debate. In the end, people with less experience go hunting with an automatic shotgun and think they've got a machine gun. Buckshot is expensive. At least with the pump it's a little harder to spray and pray.
 
Pumps just work, Bella.

While great strides have been made in reliability with the self loaders, pumps still have the rep of being as reliable as crowbars. And as sturdy.

Pumps cost less. Buying used, I can have one 870 for defense, one for hunting and clays, and maybe a 20 gauge also for the price of an A400 or SBE.

Pumps can use a a larger part of the ammo spectrum. I have no 3.5" capable shotguns, but a 3" 870 here has had 3/4 oz training rounds through it and can fire 1 7/8 oz turkey loads as well as my pet Hevishot goose loads, etc.

By and large, pumps weigh less. Most come in around 7 lbs or less. Most self loaders start there and go up, sometimes a lot.

Tradition plays a part also. Lots of us started off with a pump, or watched kin with theirs.

HTH.....
 
I've gotta say, that aside from all the above reasons, I only have one reason.

Pumps are like driving a stick shift. You just feel "in-tune" with the weapon.

Not to mention that in an SD scenario, the racking of a pump let's the OPFOR know that someone in that house means business.
 
I think I'm with the "they just work" camp here. That said, the biggest reason I haven't owned one is price, wich is funny, because that's also the reason I haven't owned a nice sxs or o/u too.:rolleyes:
 
Pumps are like driving a stick shift. You just feel "in-tune" with the weapon.
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Actually, if you REALLY want to feel "in-tune" with the gun, have the stock custom done so it fits YOU like a glove, and make sure the gun is perfectly balanced - there is no finer joy than being able to pick up the gun and have it come to bear perfectly without having to scrunch up on the stock or wiggle it around in your shoulder

Food for thought
 
50 or 60 yrs ago ....semi-automotic handguns and shotguns were not considered very reliable ( so a lot of police officers carried revolvers / and a lot of hunters - and even clay target shooters used pump shotguns). If you go back into the Trap and Skeet shooting records in the 40's thru the 60's / you will see quite a few pump guns in the old photos from some notable shooters.

In the old days, Semi-autos were especially prone to jamming when you tried to run light loads thru them - or a mix of loads thru them.

I think it evolved a little in the 80's - and 90's --- where the semi-autos reached a fair amount of success in terms of being used for hunting, skeet and sporting clays ( but not really for Trap shooting ).

Today's semi-autos shoot cleaner, require less maintenace and perform better with a wider variety of shells than ever before. Its gotten to the point now where a lot of waterfowlers and a few, but not a lot, of competition shooters have turned to semi-autos for any number of reasons. Companies like Benelli and Beretta have marketed shotguns for serious competition shooters - Benelli Super Sport models, Beretta UGB ...and others ...(in the $ 1,750 - $4,000 price ranges) Beretta, Browning, Winchester and Remington now all have 5 or 6 models specifically marketed at sporting clays, Skeet and Trap shooters ( between $ 1,500 - $3,500 probably ) - with more configurations of stocks, barrel lengths and adjustability that is desireable in the shooting sports where Over Unders have, and still, dominate most every shoot.

Competition shooters are different that bird hunters .... as competition shooters we focus on finding the right weight and barrel length - to reduce recoil and smooth out our swings. We don't worry about carrying a 10 lb gun around all day / because we carry them in push carts or golf carts. Field hunters don't want to carry a gun around all day over 7 1/2 or 8 lbs ...

But for a lot of shooters it comes down to price ...pump guns are $300 - $750 / semi-autos are $ 1,000 - $2,000 mostly / Over Unders are $ 1,500 - $4,000 mostly.

I like shooting a semi-auto once in a while ( but I hate having to go back and pick up my hulls ...) / same thing on a good pump gun ...I like shooting them once in a while ... but I'm still scattering hulls all over ../ so most of the time, when I'm reaching for a gun to go to the club with for the day ..its an O/U ...( everybody can see its not loaded, when the gun is open ), ( less moving parts means more reliabiltiy after 50,000 or 100,000 shells ) ... ( O/U's are way easier to clean usually and faster to clean and store ..) ... (O/U's will fire most any shell that you can force into the gun - even if the crimp is nasty or the hull is cracked ...) ...

but as my shoulder problems get worse ....I'm considering a Beretta UGB ...(and that's the story I'm telling my Wife / so don't make me repeat it too many times ....or I'll laugh ...and then she won't believe me ...) and on days when I just want to travel with one gun to do everything pretty well, I reach for the Benelli Super Sport semi-auto....it lets me hunt a little, shoot some skeet, some trap, some sporting clays. The UGB is an odd-ball 2 shell semi-auto hybrid ...

But I think the semi-auto is earning its place ...pretty well these days..
 
Actually, if you REALLY want to feel "in-tune" with the gun, have the stock custom done so it fits YOU like a glove, and make sure the gun is perfectly balanced - there is no finer joy than being able to pick up the gun and have it come to bear perfectly without having to scrunch up on the stock or wiggle it around in your shoulder

Food for thought
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In my opinion that is "junk food for thought" for us average shooters, why spend the money for CUSTOM anything, buy more ammo and shoot the gun until it is part of you, that fixes most of the problems.

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
I love pump shotguns because they're lost cost, high quality, and very reliable. they're also very versatile.

for less than $300 I can get one firearm to cover a very wide range of tasks
 
All that said, why then did the USMC choose the Benelli M4 as its scattegun of choice? I know there are less than obvious reasons for DOD sourcing decisions such as politics, under the table shennanigans, but even still, the decision to procure M4's in lieu of 870's still has to stand on its own two feet as a reasonable and sound decision.

I struggled with choosing a scattergun for HD and in the end chose an M4. Originally thinking along the lines of others that if a BG hears the racking of the slide, they'll go running, I started thinking that if I think there's a BG in the house, I'll be chambered, off safety and ready to defend my home - no time to try and 'scare' him away with the sound of the racking.
 
Why did the military select the M4?

Because in a battle, a reliable, softer shooting semi auto shotgun has its advantages. This is not knocking the pump, but a well trained marine is going to be able to shoot and get back on target slightly faster with the semi auto.

I like pump shotguns and think that they are pretty much stone cold reliable...but semi autos have come a looooong way from yesteryear. In some cases they can actually be a little more reliable in a stressful situation where a person might short stroke a pump.

BTW, have you seen the size of the military budget...affording a semi auto shotgun is not a problem.

Just my two cents. ;)
 
pck823

That is a very good observation, Benelli M4 Super 90 / M1014 JSCS shotgun is the FIRST gas operated scattergun to see wide spread approval by the services. The last gas guns experimented with Remington 1100 and M7188 preformed poorly in the environment of south east Asia. The M4 on the other hand is a piston driven gun, which to my understanding is very reliable.

Perhaps we have learned something since the mid 1980's about self loading fighting scatterguns. Perhaps the military has conquered the mindset of it's troops. What ever the case, if the M4 works as advertised, it is a better gun for war, hands down.

Originally thinking along the lines of others that if a BG hears the racking of the slide, they'll go running, I started thinking that if I think there's a BG in the house, I'll be chambered, off safety and ready to defend my home - no time to try and 'scare' him away with the sound of the racking.
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I have never been one to put forth the benefit of racking a slide as a passive deterrent. If it does work to deter your enemy "so much the better". What racking the slide on a fighting scattergun is all about is the simple act of preparing for war, if anything what that sound should do is JOLT the user into a state of readiness. Nothing more, Nothing less.

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
In my opinion that is "junk food for thought" for us average shooters, why spend the money for CUSTOM anything, buy more ammo and shoot the gun until it is part of you, that fixes most of the problems.
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Practicing bad form on a gun that doesn't fit over and over again just reinforces the bad form and then makes it a part of muscle memory, causing even MORE problems that would have to be undone. CUSTOM doesn't have to mean spending the price of a car - it can be as simple as an adjustable comb and butt plate.

but as my shoulder problems get worse ....I'm considering a Beretta UGB ...(and that's the story I'm telling my Wife / so don't make me repeat it too many times ....or I'll laugh ...and then she won't believe me ...) and on days when I just want to travel with one gun to do everything pretty well, I reach for the Benelli Super Sport semi-auto....it lets me hunt a little, shoot some skeet, some trap, some sporting clays. The UGB is an odd-ball 2 shell semi-auto hybrid ...
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Jim, I have shot that UGB - it is interesting in its function - I CAN tell you it is SOFT shooting - IMO, your shoulder will love it
 
What? You all are calling pump action shotguns low tech? This is low tech!!!

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