Low Profile Urban Carbine Project

D

Dave T

New member
I recently bought the basis for a rifle project that I would like to describe, then get some feed back from those of you here on TFL.

This comes from a conversation I had years ago with the late Bruce Nelson (of holster making fame) about Jeff Cooper and his Scout Rifle concept. Bruce once asked Cooper if the light, handy, easy to load, medium powered 30 caliber rifle he described didn't sound like a 30/30. Jeff got upset at the time but some months later proclaimed a lever action Marlin or Winchester in 30/30 would make an excellent "urban carbine". The design would not upset people yet it had good capacity, was light and handy, and of medium power.

I always liked the idea and finally found a starting point. A straight stocked (no pistol grip) Marlin 336 in good mechanical condition for a low price ($199).
What I have in mind is putting Wild West Guns lever action peep sight on the back, some kind of high visibility bead or blade on the front. Pachmyer's Sporting Clay's Decelerator pad (the one with the hardened heel that slides nicely up to your shoulder) goes on the back. Add a sling and butt stock ammo cuff, then have the tang area (the weakest part) glass bedded. While it's at the gunsmith I might have the whole thing bead blasted and blued.

I've already test fired it and can keep all my shots inside the "A" Zone of an IPSC Silhouette at 100 yards with the stock sights. Any suggestions about or criticisms of the idea?
 
I believe Cooper calles that the Brooklyn Special when Ghost ring sights and the flimsy screw on the mag/barrel band is replaced. Get it in 45LC (or another pistol cal) and it becomes the Kansas City Special. At least that's how I remember it from one of his articles on the lever action.

Personally, I like my Rossi M92 Trapper in 44mag. Holds around 10. If I get a large loop on it then it would look like John Wayne's rifle. How much more American can it get?

I wouldn't complain about your 30-30 either! Nix the scope requirement and it fits the bill for a scout rifle out to about 200yds. I absolutely love lever guns.
 
So lets see....you've got a light, short rifle in a respectable caliber which fires with acceptable accuracy, not terribly expensive, and you seem to be quite proficient with it.

Hard to argue with that.
 
Its a Marlin, which makes it a bit more rugged than the Winchester. The 30/30 is ballistically pretty close to 7.62x39.
With good iron sites, and suitable practice, you are fine.

Looks like a thumbs up to me.
 
It will sound great when you tell the officer that you were lucky to have your deer rifle in the trunk and time to load it before the bad guy could shoot you. I do SASS and some of those cowboys are really quick and accurate with the lever guns in both long range rifle and pistol calibers. Go for it...........
 
Good choice.

I suggest you look at the Ashley Express scout package for your gun.
It consist of a High profile front sight with a ghost ring for
backup and a scout scope mount. I have this on two Marlins.

Cheers,

ts
 
I strongly recommend you get the 1894P or 1894 in .44 magnum. It cylces so much faster than a 30/30 and it holds more rounds. As a 100 yard gun, they are equal or the .44 mag has a slight advantage in stopping power. The magnum is cheaper to shoot too. The 1894P cyles almost as fast as a semiautomatic. In a SHTF scenario, it has the advantage over a box fed semiauto in that it is easier to top off the gun after a few shots and you don't have to manage partially loaded magazines. Of course, lever guns are extremely slow to reload once you shoot them dry. You could use your handgun as back up.

Whatever you do, don't buy the Winchester. They aren't bad. But, Marlin is so superior in every way. I have owned both and just sold my 94 trappers to buy another 1894P.

Dave
 
Sounds like you've discovered the thinking man's urban longarm. I was going to go this route when another carbine fell in my lap.
 
Sounds like a reasonable idea. The only downside to the Marlin/Win lever actions is that you have to work the ammo through the action to unload it, like a lot of old guns with tubular magazines.

How about a Winchester Model 88 or Savage 99 lever gun with box magazine? They are in 308 Win which is Coop's favorite cartridge.
 
Hate to raise three evil heads at once, but why not an M1 Carbine, an SKS or a Mini 30? All of them are nice wood stocked benign looking carbines that do about what you're talking about. They all offer the potential for a bit more firepower too, if you want to risk having an evil banana clip showing.



Pre-emptive flames and responses follow:

1: The M1 won't stop a fly.
---I wouldn't want somebody shooting it at me.

2: The Mini 30 is jams and is inaccurate.
---Mine never does if I use factory mags(which hold about as many rounds as a levergun), and I wouldn't want someone shooting it at me either.
 
I have a far more important point on making lever actions into 'urban carbines'. Have you tried to fire these 'carbines' rapid fire for more than 15 to 20 rounds. Have you noticed this burning sensation in your hands due to the exposed metal, which lever actions have in abundance, being red hot!

Have you tried 'speed reloading' a tube fed leveraction which is very hot in your hands? Have you any problem with short-stroking the action? Stuffing rounds in the loading gate? Finding rounds to load in the loading gate?

I know Col. Jeff and others are just happy with the lever action as a 'urban carbine', but I have tried it with Marlin .44s and Winchester Trapper 30/30. They kick like heck, hard and slow to reload, get hot has hell after just a handfull of rounds fired, and have very little wood to keep one from buring their hands once it does get hot!

Deaf
 
At the risk of sounding non-tactical... I doubt any of us will ever need to fire more than 10 rapid fire rounds in defense. I have had trouble short shucking 30/30 rifles, never my 1894P. Ace Case makes a nice 50 round belt to hold spare rounds. You can top off the weapon as you go along. Shoot it dry - transition to handgun.

For most purposes the .44 lever will suffice. If the world comes to an end and I am fighting gangs of bad guys, I would rather have my Garand. To me, they both have different roles.
 
I wish I could put rifles or shotguns on my CCW.

I would love to carry a rifle or shotgun in the trunk ready to go. Why do we have to be limited to just handguns on our CCWs? This would make the idea of carrying an 870 or a lever gun in the trunk much more appealing.
 
I believe the point here is to have a short, handy rifle that will be effective at urban distances and will not alarm the sheeple, the lever carbines fit this niche well. These are not rifles to go out and seek urba combat with, but rather an relativly inexpensive tool that can be kept handy in a vehichle in any part of the country without running afoul of some of the more draconian gun laws. I personally favor my Savage 99 set up in Scout configuration.. 5 in the magazine, 5 0n the butt cuff and another 80 in the assult case. ( those Federal ammo holders fit nicely where the hi-cap mags are supposed to go) If the fight lasts more tht a few rounds I plan on a retrograde movement to an extremly defensable position and hunkering down. I do not want to get into and extended firefight with this gun. That is what the poodle shooter or the M1A are for. This type of rifle is one thaat can be kebt behind the seat of the truck or in the trunkof a car until needed. So I am not really worried about ammo capicity, or burning my tootsies, or other ammo capicity. I can always transition to a handgun or reload.

Hasher

BTW, Cooper hamed the pistol caliber, levr action the "Kansas City Special in honor of a gentleman named Doug Smith. who I consider a friend of mine.
 
Thanks for the feedback, guys. It's interesting to read your comments and opinions.

I gave serious thought to the 44 Mag (Marlin 94) and infact had one for the first attempt at this project. Surprisingly it kicked more than this 30/30 does and was harder to load - these long, skinny 30/30s seem to feed through the sidegate better.

As someone said, I am not planning on getting into protracted fire fights with this thing (had enough of that in Rice Paddy land and I wasn't even in the infantry). If there's time I have an SP1 Colt with a stack of 30 round magazines to pull out. This was ment as an economical, behind the door or in the truck gun. I can shoot my 45 semiauto faster at close range but beyond 25 yards most any rifle/carbine is more accurate and easier to hit with than a handgun, at least for me.

My choice for a 308 was the Browning BLR. I hate the new ones (ugly!!!!!) and I found out Browning quit making magazines for the older ones (80s vintage). That ticked me off and I said to H@!! with Browning.

I'm not taking this too seriously, but rather as a fun project to see how effective a defensive weapon I can come up with for minimul investment. When it's done I'll let you know how it turned out.
 
Another thing to consider is the 30-30 will go defeat any body armor less than Threat IV. Threat IIA will stop a 44mag. The 30-30 out of a 20" barrel is good out to 150 to 200 yds with the right ammo. The 44mag is a 100 yd gun, max.
 
Cooper likes the co-pilot:

Note the rebirth of the 45-70 cartridge. It was introduced in the so-called "Trapdoor" Springfield not long after the Civil War. It was a good cartridge then and it remains so now. Winchester brought it out in their Model 1886 lever-action rifle, but while that was a good idea, it never seemed to catch on with the general public. Oddly enough by modern standards, it seemed to "kick too much." Well, it indeed comes back smartly, but we have the answer to that today in the ubiquitous muzzle brake. The cartridge does very well right over the counter, as long as you keep your shots under 150 meters. But technical developments in the ammunition line, as well as in the rifle to take it, give us new opportunities. Jim West of Anchorage some years ago introduced the "Co-pilot," a takedown little gem used as protection against huge bears for the pilots of float planes. And then Randy Garrett of Washington began improving the ammunition with his extremely hard-cast, flat-point ammunition.

The "Co-pilot" is based upon the Marlin action, and the Marlin people tried to get into the act by down-staging Jim West's nifty product. Following this, Jim West pioneered a new cartridge, which is a long-case version of the 45-70. He calls this cartridge the 457, saying that it bears the same relation to the 45-70 as the 357 does to the 38 Special.

Loaded with the Randy Garrett "Plus P" ammunition, the Co-pilot should probably now be renamed "Little David" - an extremely effective and marvelously handy weapon for use against heavy, dangerous game at moderate ranges. The piece may be had in full stainless steel with ghost-ring sights and a composition stock, which has much to recommend it in soggy climates like that of Alaska. This is the perfect combination for moose and the giant bears. It is also perfect for the African lion guide. Of course, if you are only going to shoot deer or pigs, it will do that job well, too. And in its neat little padded case, it is no more obtrusive than an overnight kit. This, I think, is progress.
 
The limitations of the leverguns have been laid out here. However, people react to these guns in a viceral way that makes them so much more palatable to the public than the "evil guns". The lever carbine that sits loaded in the corner next to my desk in my office at home evokes none of the anxiety that an ak/ar with a 30 rounder sticking in it would. As a matter of fact-even antis often find a quaint nostolgic kind of interest in them-sort of the "wow-my grandpa had one of those he kept behind the front door" sort of response. It makes for some interesting ways to convert people on some issues (they cannot denounce me without dishonoring gramps.) Also, when inside the home being a few paces from one of these is very much better than having a pistol in a drawer, and at $200-$300 they are cheaper than most handguns--and if one is stolen it is easily replaced and does't land you on the 6:00 news when some hood uses it (let's face it--we can't risk leaving the ar's, fal's, garand's, ak's out of the safes when were not home--for lots of reasons.) They would sell it and try to buy the ak. They are not the only rifles to have, but they certainly have their place-and it is well worthwhile to take the time and learn their use.
 
Watch out for cold flow of the bullets

I had a Marlin levergun in .357 Magnum that shot like a dream, cycled just fine, a great rifle all around.

I used it for a home defense gun until I noticed the lead noses of the bullets were flattening out under the long term pressure of the tubular springs. (In the engineering world this is called "cold flow") The cold flow caused hangups and jams when cycling the lever. Fresh ammo never jammed.

Downloaded the capacity to only 6 rounds (it normally held 10) to keep this from happening. Then I remembered my revolver had this capacity to begin with. Sold the rifle.

I also had a Marlin 336 in .30-30, which is a big step up in power (from a .357 Mag). Same problem with cold flow of the bullet nose when loaded to the max capacity of the tubular magazine -- cartridge jams due to the flattened nose of the bullet. When I loaded fresh ammo, no problem. Sold the .30-30, though to this day I still wish I had that one.

My lesson learned, with only 2 data points, is to watch out for bullet nose flattening under long term storage of cartidges in a tubular magazine. When I loaded the rifle with fresh ammo, no jams. Store it for a few weeks, and watch out -- it'll jam at on the first cycle. Anyone else have this problem?

YMMV.
K
 
dZ,

Have you ever fired a 45/70? Rapid fire? They kick like heck. And yes, I have owned two 45/70s, a Marlin .44 mag (and yes, it kicked more than a 30/30, and several 30/30s. Have you ever fired a ported barrel like a guide gun? Almost knocks your socks off.

My suggestion is a British 'tanker' Mk. 4 in .303. The so-called tanker has a 20 inch barrel, full wood stock (so you don't burn your hands firing several rounds), real good apendature sights, cheep as any 30/30, just as short as a 30/30, and a 10 shot mag. Do remember, with any lever or pump, you just about still need two hands to aculate the action, and the .303 is very easy to load (and unload).

Either that, or a Remington or Browning simi-auto deer rifle with some 10 round mags, Eagle makes them, and good iron sights. Maybe even a Remington 760 pump .308 carbine (but with so much metal exposed, it still gets kind of hot and dangerious to hold).

As for firing only a few shots, that is to 'assume' and we all know what happens when you 'assume' (you make an ass out of you and me). You might not be all that great a shot while being shot at!

So, think about it.

Deaf
 
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