Low pressure in 8x57?

littlephil

New member
Hi all, I loaded up some 8x57s a couple days ago and shot them yesterday. I noticed that each case had black "soot" blown back the side of it. I know in pistol cartridges, this is a sign that the pressure is too low to "seal" the brass to the chamber. Is it the same thing with bottle neck cartridges? I only had 8 cases to load at the time, so 4 got the start load and the other 4 got a half grain more. Both loads had the same "soot" on the cases. I did shoot 10 factory federal rounds before the reloads, and the cases all came out clean. So I'm just wondering if I just keep upping the charge normally, should this go away at some point? I can give specifics on the load if needed. Thanks in advance for any help.
 
The load I'm using is out of my Lyman manual. Its a 150gr Sierra game king over a start load of 47.5gr of h414 and federal 210 match primers. I also loaded 4 with 48gr of powder. I figured it was most likely due to low pressure, because the brass looked fine and only the handloads did it.
 
Many published load sources treat 8x57 with kid gloves and never go anywhere near the potential of the load... and most factory ammo for the 8x57 made in North America seems to follow that lead. I am no expert on the subject, but I load the round as well and the info I have come across says that it is neutered due to the existence of the SMALLER bore diameter that preceded the popular 8x57.

We load it with a .323" jacketed bullet but the earlier "7.92" Mauser round was a slimmer .318" bore. You can see the problems that a full-nuts load running a 175-200 grain jacketed .323" slug would have when lit off in a .318" bore.

I pretty much only dabble in 8x57 these days, but this is what I have come across and may help you.
 
Possibly giving away my age here, but I had excellent results both in performance and accuracy using 51.5 grains of IMR 4320 behind a 150 gr. JSP bullet. 56gr. was considered a max load per the Lyman manual.

I also had pretty good results using 48 gr. of 4064 pushing a 170 gr. RNJSP. That was in military brass and using RWS Berdan primers. (Yes, they used to be easy to get.)
 
Reloading data in manuals, and American factory offerings, are actually quite low pressure, and that reflects the uncertainty of structural integrity of the massive numbers of antique Mausers sloshing around the United States. I am going to say that any Mauser produced prior to the 1930's has highly suspect metallurgy. The earlier the Mauser, the worse. In spite of all the fine machining and finishes, materials and process controls were not up to snuff. Additional, military Mausers were made out of plain carbon steels that are now considered low grade, and used in applications like rebar or railroad ties, where cost is more important than material properties.

As for what loads the Mauser actions were designed to withstand, I have not found an explicit statement to the design loads that Paul Mauser used. SAAMI and CIP standards were established well after his death. However there is information about the proof pressures used in M98 actions.

Rifle Magazine Issue 159 May 1995 Dear Editor pg 10
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/ri159partial.pdf

Ludwig Olsen :

Mauser 98 actions produced by Mauser and DWM were proofed with two loads that produced approximately 1000 atmosphere greater pressure than normal factory rounds. That procedure was in accordance with the 1891 German proof law. Proof pressure for the Mauser 98 in 7 X57 was 4,050 atmospheres (57, 591 psi). Pressure of the normal 7 X 57 factory load with 11.2 gram bullet was given in Mauser’s 1908 patent boot as 3,050 atmosphere, or 43, 371 pounds.

While many Mausers in the 1908 Brazilian category will likely endure pressures considerably in excess of the 4,050 atmospheres proof loads, there might be some setback of the receiver locking shoulder with such high pressures

Kunhausen shows similar numbers in his book : “The Mauser Bolt Actions, A Shop Manual”

Rifle & Carbine 98: M98 Firearms of the German Army from 1898 to 1918 Dieter

Page 103. M98 Mauser service rifles underwent a 2 round proof at 4,000 atm gas pressure, 1 atm = 14.6 psi, 4000 atm = 58, 784 psia.

According to Dieter, the lugs broke on one out of every 1000 rifles used by the Bavarian Army Corp!


Gun Digest 1975 has an excellent article, “A History of Proof Marks, Gun Proof in German” by Lee Kennett.

“The problem of smokeless proof was posed in a dramatic way by the Model 1888 and it commercial derivates. In this particular case a solution was sought in the decree of 23 July 1893. This provided that such rifles be proved with a government smokeless powder known as the “4,000 atmosphere powder”, proof pressure was 4,000 metric atmospheres or 58,000 psia.

The 4000 atmosphere proof was standardized for the 1893 and continued after 1911.


The article indicates it was applied to the 1898. The 1939 German proof law called for proof at 130% of service load pressure. A poster stated that the maximum working pressure of the German 7.9 sS cartridge was 47kpsi, so presumably the proof pressure for a late Model 1898 would exceed that by the normal 30%, or 61k psi. Unless someone can produce credible data as to the proof standards of later 98 actions, and the design limits used by Paul Mauser, I am going to state that it is reasonable that the action was designed to support cartridges of 43, 371 psia with a case head diameter of 0.470. I believe that a pressure standard for old Mauser military rifles of 43, 371 lbs/ in ² is reasonable based on the SAAMI spec pressure of 35, 000 lbs/ in ². Obviously SAAMI researched this issue, probably determined original pressure standards, then used wise judgment about the age, uncertain previous history, unknown storage, usage, the known limited strength of period plain carbon steel actions, and as an industry, they were are not willing to accept the liability involved with selling new ammunition of a higher pressure.

We don't know the make, age, or your Mauser, and therefore, it is not worth wasting time adding any additional information.
 
Hi. Like F. Guffey says, you're below minimum for a 150 with H414. Oddly, Hodgdon's site doesn't list H414 loads for 150's. Just means they didn't test it. However, I have an old 23rd Edition Hodgdon manual that does. Shows 51.5(2546 fps) to 56.0(2773fps). No pressure figures.
 
The black on the case necks is normal for most calibers, but it should not smoke the shoulder. When the shoulder are smoked the case shoulder was probably size back too much or there is a head space problem. Seating the bullet at least 8mm inside the neck or giving it a crimp on the a bullet with a crimping groove might also help to let the neck expand properly inside the throat of the barrel.
 
If the OP goes ahead to anneal the neck shoulders,
I'll wager that the gas escape/soot goes away

I'd also kick up the burn speed w/ something like
335 or 8208 for a faster seal.
 
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I'll have to look up my notes, but I did some a lot of greatly reduced loads with IMR4198 for my old 98 at much lower pressure than yours, and have never seen this problem on any bottleneck rifle cartridge I've loaded. If more inclined to believe your old military gun has some surface irregularities in the chamber shoulder area that might not seal so good with your below minimum loads.
 
Ok, a little more info. I'm using the Lyman 49th edition manual. For a 150gr sp, it calls for a start load of 47.5gr of h414, with a max load of 54gr which is compressed. This is with federal 210 (regular large rifle) primers. My Speer #14 manual calls for a start charge of 51gr and a max charge of 55gr which is not compressed. This is using magnum primers. The Lyman book calls for an OAL of 2.945" and the Speer book says 2.890. As of right now, h414 is the only powder I have on hand, and the 210 match primers are the only rifle primers I have for now.
For those interested, my rifle is a VZ 24, but I can't see a date. Its headspace checked out good with the gauges and as I noted before, the factory rounds didn't have any problems at all.
As a side note, the Speer manual states that the loads it shows exceed saami specs and follow European guidelines. Thanks so far for all the feedback, I hope to hear more from everyone.
 
FWIW in this case: I recommend following the Speer/Bullet manufacturer recommendation.

SAAMI Pmax = 35,000psi
CIP(European)=56,565psi

With that,
Speer's 150grSP
H414
OAL=2.89"
and QuickLoad:

47.5gr, 27,800 psi (and now you know why the soot)
51.0gr, 34,106 psi
54.0gr, 40,761 psi
55.0gr, 43,300 psi (full but not compressed)

For reference only, of course. ;)
 
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