Loose arbor, 1851 Navy
- Thread starter Oquirrh
- Start date
Me too!
Oquirrh,
I have a brass frame with the same problem. I think it happened as a result of a chain fire incident.
I have been trying unsuccessfully to get hold of a steel frame or a good condition brass frame to fix this pistol. Having failed, my plan is to carefully drill down through the frame and arbor with the arbor in place. I will thread the drilled hole and then counterbore the first 1.8th inch of the hole to accept a screw that I have identified for the fix. I will then tighten the screw into the newly made hole.
I will establish the position of the arbor by assembling the pistol including the frame, arbor, cylinder, barrel and wedge. All other parts will be removed. I am presently making a jig to hold the pistol for the drilling operation. Before I commence the drilling operation, I will make sure that the assembly is correct by checking the interaction of the barrel, frame and cylinder.
I am going to do this operation on a milling machine rather than a drill press because even though my drill press is a very good one, (double overhead cam, four on the floor, dual exhaust...) I am not confident it is solid enough to maintain a perfect location without the bit wandering all over the south forty.
This is my plan for this brass frame Sheriff's model. I consider this pistol, as it is, to be worth only what the parts would fetch. So I don't mind tearing it up. Of course I will try not to do that, but I engage this activity knowing that the most important thing I am going to get out of it is not a fixed pistol, but the knowledge I will gain by doing the deed. If you do this to your pistol and it wrecks the pistol, I never told you anything about it.
Oquirrh,
I have a brass frame with the same problem. I think it happened as a result of a chain fire incident.
I have been trying unsuccessfully to get hold of a steel frame or a good condition brass frame to fix this pistol. Having failed, my plan is to carefully drill down through the frame and arbor with the arbor in place. I will thread the drilled hole and then counterbore the first 1.8th inch of the hole to accept a screw that I have identified for the fix. I will then tighten the screw into the newly made hole.
I will establish the position of the arbor by assembling the pistol including the frame, arbor, cylinder, barrel and wedge. All other parts will be removed. I am presently making a jig to hold the pistol for the drilling operation. Before I commence the drilling operation, I will make sure that the assembly is correct by checking the interaction of the barrel, frame and cylinder.
I am going to do this operation on a milling machine rather than a drill press because even though my drill press is a very good one, (double overhead cam, four on the floor, dual exhaust...) I am not confident it is solid enough to maintain a perfect location without the bit wandering all over the south forty.
This is my plan for this brass frame Sheriff's model. I consider this pistol, as it is, to be worth only what the parts would fetch. So I don't mind tearing it up. Of course I will try not to do that, but I engage this activity knowing that the most important thing I am going to get out of it is not a fixed pistol, but the knowledge I will gain by doing the deed. If you do this to your pistol and it wrecks the pistol, I never told you anything about it.
Tnx, Doc
In my case, I don't think the wobble is that big of an issue -- I just think the arbor has shaken loose and needs retightened using whatever method was originally used to assemble it. (Of course, I could be absolutely wrong.)
I've shot this rev a lot, but it's STEEL and I seldom used loads over 20 grains of FFFG.
I've replaced the paw assembly and the wedge, so far. I like the pistol a lot and would replace significant parts.
Again, any guidance appreciated.
In my case, I don't think the wobble is that big of an issue -- I just think the arbor has shaken loose and needs retightened using whatever method was originally used to assemble it. (Of course, I could be absolutely wrong.)
I've shot this rev a lot, but it's STEEL and I seldom used loads over 20 grains of FFFG.
I've replaced the paw assembly and the wedge, so far. I like the pistol a lot and would replace significant parts.
Again, any guidance appreciated.
To Oquirrh
I agree with you but in my case, in order to keep the frame from wobbling I must tighten the arbor past the point at which the wedge will go through. In point of fact it does not take much.
I have tried a new arbor unsuccessfully. My problem is in the threads of the frame itself because brass (the frame) is softer than steel (the arbor).
In your case, the hardness of the steel of the arbor is likely closer to the hardness of the steel of the frame. I would not be surprised to learn, though, that the effect is the same. To tighten it up you must turn the arbor and that can't happen unless it turns exactly half of one rotation.
Others on the forum have had success in using lock-tite type materials. I have not had similar success but my attempts have been limited.
Also, others on the forum have far more experience than I do in correcting this casualty.
I agree with you but in my case, in order to keep the frame from wobbling I must tighten the arbor past the point at which the wedge will go through. In point of fact it does not take much.
I have tried a new arbor unsuccessfully. My problem is in the threads of the frame itself because brass (the frame) is softer than steel (the arbor).
In your case, the hardness of the steel of the arbor is likely closer to the hardness of the steel of the frame. I would not be surprised to learn, though, that the effect is the same. To tighten it up you must turn the arbor and that can't happen unless it turns exactly half of one rotation.
Others on the forum have had success in using lock-tite type materials. I have not had similar success but my attempts have been limited.
Also, others on the forum have far more experience than I do in correcting this casualty.
I looked at a diagram for the Pietta 1851 which shows the arbor held in place by a "base pin" at the rear of the frame (under the hammer). I'm guessing the base pin is driven it to hold the arbor in place (?). I'm going to give it a couple taps with a punch to see if it tightens it up.
http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=66&cat=Pietta+1851+Navy
http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=66&cat=Pietta+1851+Navy
Real info
Here is an excellent discussion of the issue. The arbor is screwed in, then pinned from the rear. If my pin resetting doesn't work, I may have to replace the arbor, which is a bear because you have to drill out the pin.
http://tinyurl.com/d9dujf
Here is an excellent discussion of the issue. The arbor is screwed in, then pinned from the rear. If my pin resetting doesn't work, I may have to replace the arbor, which is a bear because you have to drill out the pin.
http://tinyurl.com/d9dujf
Yup!
Oquirrh,
Excellent data.
But I think I can understand why resetting the pin does not help (assuming of course that I understand the manner of the failure.)
In order for the arbor to have loosened in such a way (partially sheared threads) that would be fixed by turning it further into the frame (which I know is problematic because of wedge slot alignment) the pin would have to have fallen completely out which I am going to assume is very unlikely.
In thinking it over, I would propose that if the arbor is still turned into the frame up to its shoulder (I think some arbors have shoulders and some do not) and if you can get the barrel-cylinder-frame to align for proper operation, the potential fix which I will apply to my pistol is the method I spoke of earlier.
Notwithstanding Clem and yourself, we are still waiting for someone to respond to your question who has a clue.
Oquirrh,
Excellent data.
But I think I can understand why resetting the pin does not help (assuming of course that I understand the manner of the failure.)
In order for the arbor to have loosened in such a way (partially sheared threads) that would be fixed by turning it further into the frame (which I know is problematic because of wedge slot alignment) the pin would have to have fallen completely out which I am going to assume is very unlikely.
In thinking it over, I would propose that if the arbor is still turned into the frame up to its shoulder (I think some arbors have shoulders and some do not) and if you can get the barrel-cylinder-frame to align for proper operation, the potential fix which I will apply to my pistol is the method I spoke of earlier.
Notwithstanding Clem and yourself, we are still waiting for someone to respond to your question who has a clue.
Uberti, and I presume Pietta and others use a 5/16-18 thread on the arbor.
That's .312. Major diameter of the arbor is same as Colt at .412, so you have .050 on the radius to make a spacer. In other words, a thin shim .312 ID and .412 OD.
18 threads per inch is .055 thousandths per revolution, so, about 6 1/2 degrees per thousandth. SO, if you get the pin out, and the book says to drill with about an .090 drill, should take out the whole thing, you then tighten the arbor snugly and measure the tilt of the wedge slot, in degrees. Each 6 1/2 degrees will be ABOUT how much you have to shim. Ie, if it turns about 30 degrees off level, you'll need about 5 thou in shim to bring it back snug and wedge slot level.
That should also get the pin hole back in line. That, I would tap out to put in a "grub screw", a socket head Allen set screw. Easier to get out the next time you have to repair it.
If you don't have machinery to make the shim, you SHOULD be able to have a shim made relatively cheaply. Turn and bore a piece of steel, part it off and grind it to thickness.
This might be a temporary fix. If the threads are stretching, deforming, rather than shearing, they will do so again after the repair. Light loads, I don't mean squibs, will delay that.
Also, if your arbor bottoms out on your revolver, you may have to refit the end of it to close up the barrel lug, frame fit, since the stretched threads will make the arbor longer in effect.
Another idea I was considering is impractical, as the hammer slot is just over 5/16. Insert a barrel nut. Can't drill a hole big enough for that without opening part of the barrel slot. Heli-Coil, you have to drill oversize to tap, and get the thread start to begin just right to time the arbor slot. How to do that, I don't know. Since the companies sell ready made arbors, I assume they use CNC machines to ensure that the threads on both the arbors and the frame holes start at a precise angle. Screw it tight and the wedge slot is dead level.
A suggestion if you get the arbor out is to spin a 5/16-18 nut on it and see if the arbor threads are distorted, too. Some brasses and bronzes are as hard as or harder than some steels. If the arbor threads are stretched, replacing the arbor, for about 20 bucks, might be an option.
I recommend "Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West" to all of you, to learn about them. Long rifle and repeating rifle shooters included, and the early cartridge revolvers.
Cheers,
George
Long winded, I know. Sorry.
BTW, I have checked my sources. Frame is Part No. 1 and have yet not found a vendor who will supply one. I think cartridge gun vendors WILL sell you a replacement frame WITH a background check, as the frame is considered THE GUN. It is the part with the SN on it. You have basically bought a GUN if you buy a modern frame on which to build a custom. Barrels and all other parts are available mail order without background check.
That's .312. Major diameter of the arbor is same as Colt at .412, so you have .050 on the radius to make a spacer. In other words, a thin shim .312 ID and .412 OD.
18 threads per inch is .055 thousandths per revolution, so, about 6 1/2 degrees per thousandth. SO, if you get the pin out, and the book says to drill with about an .090 drill, should take out the whole thing, you then tighten the arbor snugly and measure the tilt of the wedge slot, in degrees. Each 6 1/2 degrees will be ABOUT how much you have to shim. Ie, if it turns about 30 degrees off level, you'll need about 5 thou in shim to bring it back snug and wedge slot level.
That should also get the pin hole back in line. That, I would tap out to put in a "grub screw", a socket head Allen set screw. Easier to get out the next time you have to repair it.
If you don't have machinery to make the shim, you SHOULD be able to have a shim made relatively cheaply. Turn and bore a piece of steel, part it off and grind it to thickness.
This might be a temporary fix. If the threads are stretching, deforming, rather than shearing, they will do so again after the repair. Light loads, I don't mean squibs, will delay that.
Also, if your arbor bottoms out on your revolver, you may have to refit the end of it to close up the barrel lug, frame fit, since the stretched threads will make the arbor longer in effect.
Another idea I was considering is impractical, as the hammer slot is just over 5/16. Insert a barrel nut. Can't drill a hole big enough for that without opening part of the barrel slot. Heli-Coil, you have to drill oversize to tap, and get the thread start to begin just right to time the arbor slot. How to do that, I don't know. Since the companies sell ready made arbors, I assume they use CNC machines to ensure that the threads on both the arbors and the frame holes start at a precise angle. Screw it tight and the wedge slot is dead level.
A suggestion if you get the arbor out is to spin a 5/16-18 nut on it and see if the arbor threads are distorted, too. Some brasses and bronzes are as hard as or harder than some steels. If the arbor threads are stretched, replacing the arbor, for about 20 bucks, might be an option.
I recommend "Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West" to all of you, to learn about them. Long rifle and repeating rifle shooters included, and the early cartridge revolvers.
Cheers,
George
Long winded, I know. Sorry.
BTW, I have checked my sources. Frame is Part No. 1 and have yet not found a vendor who will supply one. I think cartridge gun vendors WILL sell you a replacement frame WITH a background check, as the frame is considered THE GUN. It is the part with the SN on it. You have basically bought a GUN if you buy a modern frame on which to build a custom. Barrels and all other parts are available mail order without background check.
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CaptainCrossman
Moderator
Yup, if these Italian repros are actually fired a lot, they loosen up rather quickly- #2, this is why I'd have a hard time paying more than $200 for any of them- and preferably even less-(unless they are a cartridge conversion, or Walker/Dragoon model)- these repro guns simply are not worth the $250-$400 price tags the distributors have historically put on them in the past. We are talking cheap, non-heat treated, soft steel guns here- if fired a lot, they immediately have problems and need to be repaired. The loose arbor/frame/barrel/cylinder problems exist with the open top Colt replicas- the topstrap designs appear to be trouble free due to their stronger frame.
the only way to keep that wedge tight in a gun that's actually used for shooting on a regular basis, it weld the arbor to the steel frame, then grind down the weld so it clears the hammer when it drops
I see a lot of Colt BP CB guns- most of them are safe queens- the ones that are actually fired a lot, have to be modded to make them "live"- otherwise they have wedge/barrel/cylinder clearance issues, and loose arbors
the only way to keep that wedge tight in a gun that's actually used for shooting on a regular basis, it weld the arbor to the steel frame, then grind down the weld so it clears the hammer when it drops
I see a lot of Colt BP CB guns- most of them are safe queens- the ones that are actually fired a lot, have to be modded to make them "live"- otherwise they have wedge/barrel/cylinder clearance issues, and loose arbors
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tnx gmatov and captCrossman
Good information, right on target.
After tapping the pin back in on my Navy, the arbor remained tight through 2 cylinders at 20 grains FFFG. Didn't have time for more testing.
I'm sure it will loosen up again. Until then, I'll fire light loads (15 grains?). Then, decide how to go about a fix or just transfer good parts to another Navy or sell as parts. The brass "Confederate" Colt copies must go to hell in a hurry.
Final question: I'm guessing that a decent quality steel Remington '58 is NOT plagued by similar arbor issues (I've owned three and never had a problem). I've got my eye on a 36 cal. Remington so-called "Navy."
I have a stainless ROA, but it's just not as fun to shoot as the open top colts -- don't know why.
Good information, right on target.
After tapping the pin back in on my Navy, the arbor remained tight through 2 cylinders at 20 grains FFFG. Didn't have time for more testing.
I'm sure it will loosen up again. Until then, I'll fire light loads (15 grains?). Then, decide how to go about a fix or just transfer good parts to another Navy or sell as parts. The brass "Confederate" Colt copies must go to hell in a hurry.
Final question: I'm guessing that a decent quality steel Remington '58 is NOT plagued by similar arbor issues (I've owned three and never had a problem). I've got my eye on a 36 cal. Remington so-called "Navy."
I have a stainless ROA, but it's just not as fun to shoot as the open top colts -- don't know why.
Fingers McGee
New member
Quote Cpt Crossman:
Not in my experience. I have a pair of Navy Arms Frontiersmen and Taylor/Uberti 1861 Navies with in excess of 1000 rounds each through them. They're just as tight now as they were when new. Working with a pair of 2nd Gen Colt 1861s now that have around 500 rounds each through them.
Not in my experience. I have a pair of Navy Arms Frontiersmen and Taylor/Uberti 1861 Navies with in excess of 1000 rounds each through them. They're just as tight now as they were when new. Working with a pair of 2nd Gen Colt 1861s now that have around 500 rounds each through them.
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Cap,
You are just SO negative I can't decide who you shill for. They are NOT weak pistols. They wer the best that could be had, at one time.
YOU decide that ONLY the top strapped pistols are the only ones to shoot.
The Walker, Model of 1847, only the second revolver made, was the most powerful handgun till the advent of the .357 Magnum. FAR less metalurgically advanced than the cheapest replica, today. They shot and they lasted, at least some of them.
They were probably about on a par with rebar, today, as to the steel used. "Twisted iron", f'r instance.
Just for our edification, whom DO you want to make replicas? Smith or Colt or someone else? I see the prices of revolvers in cartridge guns. I have a bunch.
Expensive! We have a little niche of BP pistols and shooters. I don't know if you think that we should pay 700 bucks for one of them made by the majors.
Cheers,
George
You are just SO negative I can't decide who you shill for. They are NOT weak pistols. They wer the best that could be had, at one time.
YOU decide that ONLY the top strapped pistols are the only ones to shoot.
The Walker, Model of 1847, only the second revolver made, was the most powerful handgun till the advent of the .357 Magnum. FAR less metalurgically advanced than the cheapest replica, today. They shot and they lasted, at least some of them.
They were probably about on a par with rebar, today, as to the steel used. "Twisted iron", f'r instance.
Just for our edification, whom DO you want to make replicas? Smith or Colt or someone else? I see the prices of revolvers in cartridge guns. I have a bunch.
Expensive! We have a little niche of BP pistols and shooters. I don't know if you think that we should pay 700 bucks for one of them made by the majors.
Cheers,
George
Oq,
Are you shooting a .36? 15 grs, squib load, OK. They WILL hold more.
IF the damned thing "blows up", it will likely do little damage to you. I don't think there has been a chain fire that has caused damage TO a pistol.
A 100 years ago, some of the gunslingers had "belly" guns made, with little or no barrel. The ball attained velocities of about 500 FPS. Maybe less. Anyhow, turned away by the greatcoats they wore.
Cap,
Why do you continue denigrating the only source OF these pistols? If we did not have the Italian Reps, we would have none at all. Even Colt with their Second Gen. used Italian made reps to make their own 500 buck guns from.
You continue to belittle them, but if you had no access to them, you would be shooting 500 and up cartridge guns. If that is your aim, go to it.
I like my BP "grenades". If they DO blow up, BFD. Generally, they BLOW UP downstream. Do no damage to the shooter. Arbor pulls out, arbor and barrel go toward the target.
Methink you doth protest too much.
Cheers,
George
Are you shooting a .36? 15 grs, squib load, OK. They WILL hold more.
IF the damned thing "blows up", it will likely do little damage to you. I don't think there has been a chain fire that has caused damage TO a pistol.
A 100 years ago, some of the gunslingers had "belly" guns made, with little or no barrel. The ball attained velocities of about 500 FPS. Maybe less. Anyhow, turned away by the greatcoats they wore.
Cap,
Why do you continue denigrating the only source OF these pistols? If we did not have the Italian Reps, we would have none at all. Even Colt with their Second Gen. used Italian made reps to make their own 500 buck guns from.
You continue to belittle them, but if you had no access to them, you would be shooting 500 and up cartridge guns. If that is your aim, go to it.
I like my BP "grenades". If they DO blow up, BFD. Generally, they BLOW UP downstream. Do no damage to the shooter. Arbor pulls out, arbor and barrel go toward the target.
Methink you doth protest too much.
Cheers,
George
Indian Outlaw
New member
Why do you continue denigrating the only source OF these pistols? If we did not have the Italian Reps, we would have none at all.
I do not have sufficient discretionary income to purchase an authentic cap & ball revolver. But I am thankful that the Italians are making reasonable facsimiles (some angles, grip shapes, and screw positions might not be 100% authentic). And, while the craftsmanship might not be up to U.S. gunmaking standards, I can hold a gun in my hand, dial up a Western audio book on my MP3 player, and be transported back in time, in my imagination, to escape the scourges of 21st Century humanity.
Well, at least until the battery dies.
I do not have sufficient discretionary income to purchase an authentic cap & ball revolver. But I am thankful that the Italians are making reasonable facsimiles (some angles, grip shapes, and screw positions might not be 100% authentic). And, while the craftsmanship might not be up to U.S. gunmaking standards, I can hold a gun in my hand, dial up a Western audio book on my MP3 player, and be transported back in time, in my imagination, to escape the scourges of 21st Century humanity.
Well, at least until the battery dies.