Looking for reloading assistance

M

mgulino

New member
I’ve been handloading for about 6 years now, mostly 9mm, 357 Magnum, and 223 Remington, but a little 45ACP, 30-30 and just started 308 Winchester a few months ago. This issue concerns the 223. My standard load is 23.5 grains of H335 with a 55gr bullet seated to 2.230. I never really paid much attention to brass head stamps as this load is not at maximum and it shoots fairly accurately in my Ruger American (22” barrel with a 1:9 twist). I have noticed a wide swing in velocity at the muzzle, and attributed that to the various brass manufactures as all other conditions are equal (trim length, powder charge, seat depth, etc).

So, I decided to run some velocity tests with different head stamps and all other factors being identical. I loaded 5 each of Lake City, PMC, 2 different Federal, and Military brass with my standard load. All brass trimmed to the same 1.750 length. All powder charges were weighed by hand. All had the same CCI 400 primer. All bullets were weighed at 55gr, and all were seated to 2.230. The results are below.

Mil – average 3031 with a 100 FPS difference min to max
Lake City – 3022 average with 96 min-max
PMC – 2987 average with 80 min-max
Federal – 2988 with 132 min-max
Federal cartridge – 2954 average with 128 min-max
For grins I also checked some commercial PMC. Average was 3144 with 104 FPS difference min-max.

I understand the differences between averages attained with the different head stamps. My concern is the spread of velocities within each group. With all factors besides head stamp being the same, shouldn’t my spread between minimum and maximum velocities be much less? Is this as good as it gets, or am I missing something?
 
5 shots per load across several types of cases will easily give those results. 25 shots per load is better.

I suspect how tight case necks grip bullets and case weights are the biggest cause, but 90% statistical probability to verify needs 25 shots per case.

What's the average case weights across all makes?
 
It’s the load. I get that you didn’t do enough of each sample, but only the powder/primer combo can create that much chaos IME.

You might try a cci 450, but I would try TAC, CFE223 or AA2520 first.
 
I weighed each bullet before loading, and all were 55 gr as advertised. I did not group LC brass by date. I did not clean the bore between groupings; however, each string had faster 1st/2nd shots followed by slower remaining shots. I did allow the barrel to cool between 5-shot groups. Magazines were loaded one at a time from a box of ammo kept in the range bag, out of the sun.

So I went back to my figures and calculated SD for each head stamp. Results below:
Mil - 46.6
FC - 60
Fed - 45
PMC - 38.5
LC - 58.9
SD for my commercial loads was 43.5

I'm not completely certain on the origin of the brass...some is likely range pickup. I know the Mil is range pickup and likely once-fired. I also now have about 200 rounds of once fired commercial PMC and Federal that I will be reloading and testing soon.

I did go back to my log books and checked loads for which I have data for more than 25 shots. Unfortunately, this is mixed brass. The first is 24.5 gr of H335 with a 55 gr SP and CCI 400, for an average velocity of 3172, spread of 142 and SD of 38. The second is 23 gr of H335 with a 68 gr HPBT and a CCI 400 for an average velocity of 2850, spread of 158, and AD of 45.
 
Weeight the case's MTY and look at average weight's. The heavier case's are heavier because they have more material in the same size case which means less case capacity. If you load the case's first, you have no clue the actual weight of the case. I can't remember a lot from years ago but the lightest case's I used were Winchester, then Remington, then Federal and the heaviest was Norma. Only in handguns will I used a mix of brands of case's, then I don't shoot handguns that well anyway. Something I don't think you'll ever find is a box of MTY case's that all weight the same!
 
I see what your saying. It is a huge velocity spread (even for 5 rounds).
I'd almost say, powder or primer, or rather the combination may be your culprit.

My wifes Savage 110FP has a 24" barrel with 1:9 twist. For our shooting we are using LC brass and Federal Match primers. For the 55gr bullets (which we really don't shoot that much of) we've been using either Win748, or Alliant Power Pro Varmint.
Haven't sat down with the chrono and the 55gr bullets. But have shot acceptably out to 300 yards.

Your 1:9 twist would probably like something closer to the 69gr range.
Sierra Tipped MatchKings and Alliant Power Pro 2000 work well for us.
 
Mixing brass is, in my opinion, contrary to the purpose of developing a load. The goal is to make a mini home production that yields better than store bought results. That’s my take anyway. If your load performs good enough for your application and range of use then don’t sweat it. At 100 yards your going to see almost no game changing differences ( not saying it can’t happen... just less likely). 200 and beyond is where consistency will outperform. That means same brass, same bullet, same powder and charge and same primer. Every round is as close to a mirror image of the other as you can make it. If your truly devoted to maximizing your accuracy with handloads you should separate and sort your brass and keep the developed load specific to brass type if you can.
Some powders also have boded where the velocity is all over the place. As an accuracy chaser I will spend a lot of time tweaking the velocity spreads to be below 20 if I plan/need the utmost out of the round. If I only need 1 MOA accuracy then i don’t sweat the smaller stuff
 
Velocity really makes very little difference. Accuracy is what's important. Keep in mind that if the accuracy is good, don't fix the load, it ain't broke.
"...am I missing something?..." You're over thinking the whole thing. That 23.5 is .5 over minimum. And a 1 in 9 barrel will usually prefer a heavier bullet.
2.230" is a tick short too. Nothing to do with the off-the-lands stuff. SAAMI Max OAL for .223 is 2.260".
Oh and Lake City, Federal and Federal cartridge are the same thing.
 
I use Remington #7 1/2 primers exclusively in .223. My charge of H335 is 25.5 grains. Bullet is M193 ball (55 GR FMJ) Both of my AR-15s, do well with this load. ! in 7 and 1 in 12 twists.
 
Mgulino,

I suspect several factors are involved:

One is that H335 is canister grade WC844, which was formulated for M193 ball ammo back in the 1960s as a less expensive alternative to stick powder and one the Lake City loading equipment could meter more accurately. Along with WC846 and WC852 (BL-C(2) and H380 in canister grade), for 7.62 and 30-06 ball, respectively, this powder has high exterior deterrent coatings that penetrate the grain in an exponentially diminishing concentration. This is what enables the spherical grain to burn progressively. It also makes them harder to ignite consistently than stick and flake powders are. In 1989, CCI altered their magnum primer formulations specifically to address this ignition problem. Some more modern deterrent chemistries, as found in the Ramshot powders, don't require special ignition, but I asked Hodgdon if they had updated the chemistry of these powders and they said no; they order them with the exact same chemistry as the original formulations. A moment's thought will reveal it would be a bad idea to make changes that could alter the performance of existing loads, so they don't do it.

Subsequent to 1989, I've noticed a lot of standard primers have added hotter sparks to their formulations, as was done by CCI that year, so the magnum primer isn't always required. Nonetheless, if you think you are having such a problem, go to the CCI 450 or CCI #41. Note that pressure may go up some with this change, but with your low load level, it won't be excessive.

Second, be sure you seat your primers fairly firmly. You want to force the cup in 0.003" past the point you feel the anvil feet touch the bottom of the primer pocket. Otherwise, there can be ignition irregularity.

"There is some debate about how deeply primers should be seated. I don’t pretend to have all the answers about this, but I have experimented with seating primers to different depths and seeing what happens on the chronograph and target paper, and so far I’ve obtained my best results seating them hard, pushing them in past the point where the anvil can be felt hitting the bottom of the pocket. Doing this, I can almost always get velocity standard deviations of less than 10 feet per second, even with magnum cartridges and long-bodied standards on the ’06 case, and I haven’t been able to accomplish that seating primers to lesser depths."

Dan Hackett
Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, Precision Shooting Inc., Pub. (R.I.P.), Manchester, CT, 1995, p. 271.​

Another potential issue is case fill. While I don't know what bullet you are using, if I seat a Hornady 55-grain FMJ to a COL of 2.230", that powder charge is only at about 80% loading density in an average case (30.5 grains case water overflow capacity). I once fired several Garands with a load that filled the case about 82% to see what difference it made whether the powder was forward in the case and over the bullet when I fired, or whether it was back over the flash hole when I fired. This was with a 173-grain match bullet. The velocity difference for the two powder positions averaged 80 fps out of about 2600 fps or 3%. That same percentage would be 94 fps with your load (based on Hodgdon's numbers for a test barrel). So, in your shoes, I would be sure the powder was in the same position for every shot during the test.

Another observation is you are probably running about 42,600 CUP in a cartridge designed for 52,000 CUP. Ball powders ignite and burn better at higher pressures, so you have a case where you are loading conservatively with a powder that doesn't like being loaded down very much.

As far as case capacity goes, that can fool you. Cases can be more consistent in volume than their weight difference suggests because all the diameter and slope tolerances for the head features, which don't affect internal capacity, can change the weight by several grains. I compared a bunch of new .308 brass by weight and measured their internal volume, and found weight would only predict internal capacity with an accuracy of about ±20% of the difference between two cases.

Sorting can't hurt, but most brass makers combine brass that came off several tooling sets, so you can only be sure of matching capacity if you meaure it. Nonetheless, because different makers use different brass alloys, for the purpose of neck grip on the bullet, I would keep brass sorted by headstamp at least, by headstamp and lot if possible, and by their load history.
 
When I first started to reload I never paid attention to brass brands ( headstamps ) until one day I noticed when using federal brass the case filled almost to the case mouth with the same load . I was using Remington and Winchester brass . Then I realized not all brass was the same thickness . Now I separate all brass and shoot the same brass brands every time , both handgun and rifles .

Chris
 
Big velocity swings are probably related poor ignition, variations in case free space and/or neck tension.

Poor ignition can be a bad powder / primer combination for a given load.

Less free space typically gives better ignition and more velocity.

More neck tension also helps with better ignition, but getting both more tension and consistent tension can be a challenge.

Neck tension is affected by neck thickness, brass hardness, and how much the neck must stretch. Mixed brass does not help you odds for getting consistent neck tension.
 
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T.O.
Once again, you didn't actually read the posts, even though you seem great with Google.
OP was looking at the differences of extreme spread and standard deviation, not highest velocity.
And his tests were performed not with mixed brass, but samples of the same headstamps.
 
Thanks for all the input. I now know I have a few options to try.
I have sorted some once fired FC and PMC brass (saw my SIL take it out of the box and fire). After resizing and depriming, I measured the lengths. The FC was at 1.745 and the PMC was at 1.750. I then sorted by weights. Most weighed between 92.2 and 93.8 grains, so I sorted hi/low 92 and 93. I now have 4 lots of brass to try again.
I’m sticking with the CCI400 and H335 because that’s what I have now. Changing one variable at a time will let me know if the cases really make a difference. Will post results later.
Thanks again for all the input.
 
I know 23.5 grr is a tick over minimum but I’m getting 3000 FPS and it’s pretty accurate at 100 yds. I also know 2.23 COL is very short compared to specs of 2.260; however, the Hodgdon site lists 2.200 as a COL for this load.
 
I agree w/ Uncle Nick- it's your powder/primer combo, and probably the light load, as well .... IME, ball powders are harder to get going and at min charges, more erratic ..... all the older ball powder (H110, H335, H414, etc....) loads that I have ever worked up worked better towards the top end, and if you are going to use them in cold weather, use a magnum primer.
 
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