Longe Range Shooting - Am I Blind?

Y

yankytrash

New member
Found this link on another web site: http://www.nyhighpower.com/schedules.htm

Note the 600 and 1000 yard iron sight competitions. Do people really make those kinds of shots from open sights? :confused: I know there's no way I could see the center of a 2' target at that kind of distance. I have enough trouble seeing it at 200 and 250 yards.

I always thought my eyesight was alright. Maybe I've been fooling myself? Or is there something else to this I don't know about?
 
I'd be willing to take a shot at any target that I could see. Wether or not I could hit it, who knows? It would be neat to do though. A while ago, someone in the handgun forums talked about taking 200 yard shots with a pistol. If one could hit a target at 200 yards with a handgun, a 1000 yard rifle shot should be a breeze, as long as you could see your target.

Ah yes...here it is. It was Tamara that posted the thread on handgunning. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72227
 
I guess you really have to be intimate with your gun to make those shots. Since I've just got back into shooting in the past year, I have yet to develop an intimacy with any of my 'new' 9 guns.

Me and that AR go way back though. Maybe I'll start there.

But if I still had that 22 Hornet H&R single shot of my youth, I'd probably enter that competition, and WIN!
Many a woodchuck had fallen dead to that beast at ranges of well over 600 yards. But then, that was when I still had 20/10 vision.
 
Intimate with your gun...

Are you saying you never slept with your rifle before? :confused:
 
Yank, once I witnessed a retired old gentleman well into his seventys shoot an open sighted Mauser and score amazingly well at 300 meters, and I remember that in 30 shots, he made four Xs and a total of seven 10.s I asked him about his eyes, and he told me they were not as good as in years bygone, that he did not see the target in detail, but just it's frame, aimed to the center of it and squeezed well. I hope to get to seventy something shooting half as well as he did! :)
 
Yankytrash, yes, we Highpower shooters shoot long distances regularly. The NRA Highpower Rifle matches are typically shot at ranges of 200 yards (standing slow fire and sitting rapid fire), 300 yards prone rapid, and 600 yards prone slow fire, all with open sights. Highpower rifles are divided into two categories, Service Rifle and Match Rifle. In Service Rifle, we shoot rifles that appear as the as-issued military rifles and in the original calibers. This consistes of M1 Garands, M-14 (M1A)s, and AR-15s. Only interior mods can be made (trigger, barrell, bedding, etc.) and the sights can only be upgraded slightly (strict rules allow for only a limited amount of improvement). Match rifles are kind of an "open class" where the guys can shoot just about any rifle they wish with jsut about as many mods as you can imagine...they still use open sights, but they're pretty high tech open sights, to be sure. Palma shooters typically shoot at 800, 900, and 1000 yards and use Match Rifle setups mostly.

The targets are not all 12". The aiming black of a Highpower target is 6 MOA across at all distances. At 200 it's about 12", at 300 it's about 18", and at 600 it's about 36". The x ring is always 1 MOA. The 10 ring is 2 MOA. (The 10 ring at 600 yards is 12" across)

The 200 yard standing is typically the hardest position to master, and as the saying goes, "Matches are won at 200 standing, and lost at 600 prone"

Wind at 600 yards and above constitutes the biggest problem at 600, as the position is very solid and if you had absolutely no wind, the shots wouldn't be that hard. The Masters and High Masters are real artists with reading wind.

I'd REALLY like to encourage you to go watch a HP match, and go to a "clinic" match. There you'll shoot "across the course" and find out what a match is like, and get some coaching as well. Also, look for the book "Highpower Competition" by Rudolph Constantine. It's probably the best primer you can find.

TFL, whlie a great resource, has it's limitations. It's not much for the HP scene. There are a lot of HP guys at www.ar15.com in the Compeition section, and at www.shooterstalk.com in the Highpower section. Also check out the Florida Highpower Delphi Forum, at http://forums.delphi.com/flahighpower/messages I know it's not your state, but only about 50% of the posters there are from Florida...it's a great forum.

If you think yuo're interested, please shoot me an email.
 
Iron sights, NOT "Open sights"

Seems to be major confusion about sight nomenclature here.

"Iron sights" refer to sights found rifles such as the AR-15, M1, M14, with the rear sight being what is commonly called a "peep sight". The rear sight is generally, though not always, knob adjustable for windage and elevation. Iron sights vary widely in the accuracy of their adjustments, but can be very accurate indeed.

"Open sights" are those commonly found on rifles such as the inexpensive .22 long rifle beginners rifles and military rifles such as the SKS and AK series. These sights have basically a "bar and notch" rear sight with a sliding bar adjustment for elevation. Windage adjustment is generally accopmlished by drifting the rear sight in its slot.

Also, at the longer ranges, the target is much larger than the 2 feet mentioned; the rifle is sighted to hit the center of the target using a six o'clock hold.

As for handguns, and I'm talking handguns here, not scope sighted pistifles, 200 yard shots aren't all that difficult, nor are 300 or 400 yard shots. Hitting what you're shooting at depends a lot on the size of the target, as usual. The longer shots with the pistifles are no more difficult than with a rifle, that's what they are; short rifles.
 
Anywhere they do high power competition shooting in the Virginia area? I'm very interested. I'd like to not only see it done, but I'd to give it a crack myself.

Might have to go pick me up an H&R 22 Hornet! :D any excuse for a new gun....
 
They do it and they do it well.

I am fortunate enough to live 30 minutes from a 800, 900, and1000 yard range here in the PRK. I shot my Rem 700 VS in .308 with a Leupold 6.5-20x50mm LRT with a bipod. I did rather well. There was only one other person in the "F Class" (this class anything is allowed). All the rest of the shooters were using the iron sights and a sling! And they were good! I am not quite sure how those sights work, but I do know they are fully adjustible for windage and elevation out to 1000 yards and that they are not cheap sights. These individuals are pretty dialed in when it comes to shooting. I am happy being able to claim competenancy with my 20 power scope at 1000 yards. So to answer your question, yes people shoot that far with open sights and they do pretty good.

I highly recommend to anyone to go shoot these long range Palma matches (800, 900, 1000) or National Match Highpower matches (200, 300, 600). They are lots of fun and there are some really good, down to earth, conservative people that attend them that you will enjoy spending time with. Just be warned, shooting National Match Highpower will get expensive if you get into it. I found the Palma is a little cheaper once you get a decent rifle if you stay in the F class. As soon as you get into iron sights be prepared to buy all sorts of extras and it costs some money.

And on a final note Yankytrash. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think a .22 Hornet is going to have any use at any of these matches. For the National Match Highpower you are going to want a M1 Garand, M1A, or most people prefer the AR-15. For the Palma you are going to want a minimum of a 6.5mm all the way up to .30 caliber or larger bolt action target rifle. If I am correct, the wind is going to give that .22 hornet a heck of a time past 600 yards and for National Match you really need a semi-auto.
 
just to clear it up .......iron sights are any sight that is not a scope
this includes all peep and "open " sights. but military rifles usually have peep sights
 
Whatever. Semantics have never been my strong point. It's weird because anyone can say "open sights" on a Highpower forum and no one even mentions a correction.

Forget the .22 Hornet. If you want to shoot Highpower (2,3,and 600 yds) then even if you choose to start with a Match Rifle (vice a Service Rifle) you'll still need to reload in groups of 5 rounds for the rapids. Plus you'd need so much elevation on your rear sight, you'd never get a cheek weld. The wind would destroy you. There are quite a few bolt actions that can be built to use .308 stripper clips from M-14's, and others built to accept magazines, but I doubt you'd be very happy to spend that much money on a rifle that was only a .22 Hornet. The ARs rule the line in HP escecially in Service Rifle category, since they're relatively easy to make accurate, and much cheaper to buy and run than the M1A's and Garands. A well built Highpower AR will cost you less than $1000 and will run very, very well. An equivalent M1A will run about twice that.

If you decide you want to get into Palma instead, you won't need the rapid fire reload capability, so any action will work (most prefer Remingtons and Winchester 70's). You'll need a more powerful and aerodynamic round than a .22 Hornet. Many guys are shooting 6.5-08 caliber.

ALL, except the F class, is done with iron apeture sights. IMHO, the Service Rifle class is best because it's not an equipment race. Everyone pretty much has the same setup. The shooter is what makes the difference. A High Master can pick up almost any rifle on the line (assuming that it's capable of 1 MOA and functions reliably) and win matches. Match Rifle category becomes an equipment game. If your rifle stock isn't adjustable fifteen ways from Sunday, you're not going to be really competitive. Take a look at the Tubb 2000 and you'll see what I mean. http://www.zediker.com/tubb/tubbgun.html

Cruise those sites I gave you and you'll find many matches to participate in in the VA area. MAKE SURE you got to a clinic match first, though...others won't like it if you're being a doofus in the pits while they're waiting on you. ;) (All matches are timed events, and the time you take to spot hits on the shooter's target takes away from his shooting time...They're quick when you're shooting, so you try to be quick for them)
 
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Hey, Rojo!

Where in the PDRK is that 1000 yard range?

I live in Long Beach and the closest outdoor range is about 30 miles off. More than 200 yards is over 100 miles.....
 
The boonies!

The 1000 yard range is by Cuyama. That is about an hour west of Bakersfield at the intersection of highway 33 and highway 166. Further down highway 33 right outside of Ojai (Ventura) is the Rose Valley facility of the Ojai Valley Gun Club. They have a 600 yard range and shoot National Match very frequently http://www.ovgc.org/ . I know a lot of guys drive up from all over Southern PRK to shoot at these matches. I am just fortunate enough to have to drive less than an hour.

That is why I couldn't stay in Westwood after I finished UCLA, no where to shoot...legally. In Taft, I drive 10 minutes and shoot wherever I want, for free!
 
biganimal: Yup, that's right, now that I think of it in context of "highpower" shooting. Guess maybe I spent too much time w/ the muzzleloaders and other disciplines in my misspent youth. Sorry 'bout that.
 
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