One of the other threads got me thinking. I did some work to my -06 700ADL and I expect good results. I may be putting the cart before the horse (seeing as I havent even tested it yet) but I do plan to change cartridge to something better suited to be competitive at 600yds. I have been thinking 6.5-284 might be the way to go, also like the 6.5x55 but I think it may lack the push if I make it beyond 600. What are other good alternatives in a long action rig?
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Long range / long action
- Thread starter BoogieMan
- Start date
The 6.5x.284 is a favorite for 600 to 1000-yard prone matches. It's won a lot of them and set records, too. But it's got an 800 round barrel life. .243 Win is good too, but a 1500 round barrel life's not all that good. They all were first used on long actions; still are, for best accuracy.
For 600 yards, and economically thinking, I'd pick a .308 Winchester. They're equally accurate as anything else and have a 3000 round barrel life of tack driving performance. It was originally used in a long action and that's the best to use if accuracy is paramount.
For 600 yards, and economically thinking, I'd pick a .308 Winchester. They're equally accurate as anything else and have a 3000 round barrel life of tack driving performance. It was originally used in a long action and that's the best to use if accuracy is paramount.
Bamashooter
New member
I have two 30-06's. A Remington 1903 and a T/C Venture. Both shoot moa or better with good factory loads. Both shoot sub-moa with my handloads. I only shoot out to 400yrds and both shoot sub-moa groups at that range. Personally I don't see why it wouldn't shoot accurately at 600yrds.
I think the 30-06 gets a bad rap in the long range accuracy dept. I can make a better 30-06 bullet than I can buy and in my opinion that makes a difference. If there was as much R&D put into the 06 as there was the .308 I think you would see more of them in LR matches. YMMV
I think the 30-06 gets a bad rap in the long range accuracy dept. I can make a better 30-06 bullet than I can buy and in my opinion that makes a difference. If there was as much R&D put into the 06 as there was the .308 I think you would see more of them in LR matches. YMMV
Wow!! 600 rnd barrel life. Thats a few weekends of practice and trash it.
Without starting an argument- Why the 308 over the 30-06? Everything a 308 does a -06 does a few hundred fps faster? I know that everyone says the targets were decreased etc... for the 308. But I cant believe that the cartridge as much as the newer better designed barrels and actions. Nothing against 308 I just cant see going to a slower version of the -06 in 30 cal. In my thinking its kind of like going fro a 300WM to a 30-06
Without starting an argument- Why the 308 over the 30-06? Everything a 308 does a -06 does a few hundred fps faster? I know that everyone says the targets were decreased etc... for the 308. But I cant believe that the cartridge as much as the newer better designed barrels and actions. Nothing against 308 I just cant see going to a slower version of the -06 in 30 cal. In my thinking its kind of like going fro a 300WM to a 30-06
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
I actually built a dedicated long range 6.5 X 284 rifle on a BRNO 30-06... even though the 6.5 is technically a short action cartridge, I figured I could use the 30-06 box magazine with the longer bullets seated out further than they would fit in a short action rifle...
same things could be said for the .243 or .308 for that matter... using a long action may allow you to seat out longer on the slippery bullets than would cycle in a normal short action...
same things could be said for the .243 or .308 for that matter... using a long action may allow you to seat out longer on the slippery bullets than would cycle in a normal short action...
precision_shooter
New member
6.5x47 is a great cartridge! Considered doing a custom build in this caliber before the 6.5 Creedmoor fell in my lap.
6.5x47 is still fairly new and not a whole lot of support for it yet, outside of Lapua themselves. But if it continues to grow in popularity, I'm sure that will change.
But it doesn't really do anything the 6.5 Creedmoor and 260 Remington aren't already doing...
6.5x47 is still fairly new and not a whole lot of support for it yet, outside of Lapua themselves. But if it continues to grow in popularity, I'm sure that will change.
But it doesn't really do anything the 6.5 Creedmoor and 260 Remington aren't already doing...
Why the 308 over the 30-06? Everything a 308 does a -06 does a few hundred fps faster?
When it comes to target shooting the velocity just isn't important. For a hunter it translates into a tiny bit less drop which could make a difference in range estimation at long range. For a target shooter the range is known and you can always adjust sights to compensate for more bullet drop.
All things being equal 308 is a touch more accurate. For a reloader it uses about 10 gr less powder for less than 100 fps difference in speed with the most accurate loads. Over time that means less money. It also has about 20% less recoil, which means more quality practice time.
If you start talking about 1000 yards or more, then the edge might go to the 30-06, but at the 600-800 yards the OP was talking about the 308 makes a lot of sense.
Velocity difference between the .30-06 and .308 is only about 100 fps less for the .308 when using solid mounted test barrels of the same length, same bore and groove dimensions, same powder, bullet and primer producing standard SAAMI spec pressures of 50,000 cup for the .30-06 and 52,000 cup for the .308. Best thing about that is the .30-06 has about 7% less wind drift than the .308. .30-06 recoil is less than 10% more than the .308.
The .30-06 had three strikes against it when compared to the .308 Win. back in the mid 1960's when it had begun loosing favor for match and service rifle competition up to 1000 yards:
*Shallower 17.5 degree shoulder angle and a longer slope caused less consistant primer detonation; cases often had their shouders set back 4 to 6 thousandths from firing pin impact. The .308's sharper shoulder angle of 20 degrees and shorter one had less shoulder setback. The difference in round ballistics was the .30-06 had a greater muzzle velocity spread; more vertical shot stringing at longer ranges.
*Ratio of powder charge diameter to length is greater for the .30-06; another detriment to consistant pressure curves causing greater muzzle velocity spreads than the .308. On target, vertical shot dispersion's greater with more muzzle velocity spread.
* The 2.5 degree lead angle of the '06 seemed to deform bullets more than the 1.5 degree one of the .308. Believed to be the third and final reason that long range accuracy of the .308 Win was 40% better than the .30-06 as it distorted bullets a tiny bit more. All the top ranked competitors used the same actions, stocks, components (except for cases) and barrels of equal quality to observe the .308's much better accuracy. The most accurate .30-06 match rifles in the mid 1960's would shoot under 6 inches at 600, under 14 inches at 1000 yards. Under 4 at 600 and under 10 at 1000 was the norm for equally built .308 match rifles. Even the M1's and M14's shot commercial .308 commercial match ammo better than commercial match ammo in the .30-06 Garands.
Later .30-06 chambers with a 1.5 degree leade angle helped, but not enough to outscore the .308's in competition.
Sierra Bullets used to test all their 30 caliber bullets in .30-06 cases fired in precision match grade test barrels at 100 yards. I think it was in the late '50's they switched to the .308 Win. for 30 caliber bullets 180 grains or lighter. A few years later, Sierra used a 30 caliber magnum round for 190's and heavier. They both shot their best match bullets most accuracy from them compared to what the .30-06 did. The best lots of match bullets frequently made 10-shot groups at 100 yards under 2/10ths inch.
Afield, the real difference on game is emotional.
The .30-06 had three strikes against it when compared to the .308 Win. back in the mid 1960's when it had begun loosing favor for match and service rifle competition up to 1000 yards:
*Shallower 17.5 degree shoulder angle and a longer slope caused less consistant primer detonation; cases often had their shouders set back 4 to 6 thousandths from firing pin impact. The .308's sharper shoulder angle of 20 degrees and shorter one had less shoulder setback. The difference in round ballistics was the .30-06 had a greater muzzle velocity spread; more vertical shot stringing at longer ranges.
*Ratio of powder charge diameter to length is greater for the .30-06; another detriment to consistant pressure curves causing greater muzzle velocity spreads than the .308. On target, vertical shot dispersion's greater with more muzzle velocity spread.
* The 2.5 degree lead angle of the '06 seemed to deform bullets more than the 1.5 degree one of the .308. Believed to be the third and final reason that long range accuracy of the .308 Win was 40% better than the .30-06 as it distorted bullets a tiny bit more. All the top ranked competitors used the same actions, stocks, components (except for cases) and barrels of equal quality to observe the .308's much better accuracy. The most accurate .30-06 match rifles in the mid 1960's would shoot under 6 inches at 600, under 14 inches at 1000 yards. Under 4 at 600 and under 10 at 1000 was the norm for equally built .308 match rifles. Even the M1's and M14's shot commercial .308 commercial match ammo better than commercial match ammo in the .30-06 Garands.
Later .30-06 chambers with a 1.5 degree leade angle helped, but not enough to outscore the .308's in competition.
Sierra Bullets used to test all their 30 caliber bullets in .30-06 cases fired in precision match grade test barrels at 100 yards. I think it was in the late '50's they switched to the .308 Win. for 30 caliber bullets 180 grains or lighter. A few years later, Sierra used a 30 caliber magnum round for 190's and heavier. They both shot their best match bullets most accuracy from them compared to what the .30-06 did. The best lots of match bullets frequently made 10-shot groups at 100 yards under 2/10ths inch.
Afield, the real difference on game is emotional.
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The shooter, rifle, and ammo has to be far superior to "average" to notice a difference between "long" and "short" action as a base for a long range rifle. The shorter cartridges often have a very slight advantage in accuracy over longer cartridges but it's not a blanket statement. I have a 30/06 heavy barrel match rifle that will shoot more accurately than 90% of the "off the shelf" .308 rifles in this country. Will it out shoot a .308 assembled with as much care as it had? Maybe not but it might and that's a thorn in the side of those who adamantly state that the.308 is superior to the .30/06 or short is more accurate than long(simply too many variables).
Ammo is a big factor in the "308 is better" argument. There is a bigger selection of very accurate factory loaded .308 than in .30/06. Let's face it, there's a decent possibility of buying a heavy barrel .308 and high grade ammo loaded with great bullets and coming up with a combination capable of hitting a 6" circle @ 500-600 yards. Finding that combination in .30/06 is going to be far more difficult(or just a VERY lucky happenstance).
Ammo is a big factor in the "308 is better" argument. There is a bigger selection of very accurate factory loaded .308 than in .30/06. Let's face it, there's a decent possibility of buying a heavy barrel .308 and high grade ammo loaded with great bullets and coming up with a combination capable of hitting a 6" circle @ 500-600 yards. Finding that combination in .30/06 is going to be far more difficult(or just a VERY lucky happenstance).
Mobuck,
If you have a 30/06 heavy barrel match rifle that will shoot more accurately than 90% of the "off the shelf" .308 rifles in this country, I would agree with you. The same could be said about a match rifle chambered for a .300 Savage. Virtually all of the .30-06 match rifles back in the mid 1960's out performed "off the shelf" .308 rifles of the day. But that's not a fair comparison, in my opinion.
My accuracy comments between the two are based on their only difference being what they're chambered for. That's the best way to compare two systems; only one part of each one is different.
If you have a 30/06 heavy barrel match rifle that will shoot more accurately than 90% of the "off the shelf" .308 rifles in this country, I would agree with you. The same could be said about a match rifle chambered for a .300 Savage. Virtually all of the .30-06 match rifles back in the mid 1960's out performed "off the shelf" .308 rifles of the day. But that's not a fair comparison, in my opinion.
My accuracy comments between the two are based on their only difference being what they're chambered for. That's the best way to compare two systems; only one part of each one is different.
It doesn't matter what one's marksmanship skills are. Whatevere the rifle and ammo has for accuracy is fixed in the hardware used. It's accuracy adds to the marksmanship ability of the shooter.
If the shooter can get off shots inside a 2 MOA holding and calling area on target, a 2 MOA rifle and ammo makes the down range group up to 4 MOA. With a 1 MOA rifle and ammo, it's only 3 MOA.
Statistically manipulating the system components' accuracy numbers doesn't change how far the furthest shot from group center the rifle has will be from the desired aiming point at target range when the shot's called at the edge of the aiming area. 2 + 2 = 4 and 1 + 1 equals 3.
If the shooter can get off shots inside a 2 MOA holding and calling area on target, a 2 MOA rifle and ammo makes the down range group up to 4 MOA. With a 1 MOA rifle and ammo, it's only 3 MOA.
Statistically manipulating the system components' accuracy numbers doesn't change how far the furthest shot from group center the rifle has will be from the desired aiming point at target range when the shot's called at the edge of the aiming area. 2 + 2 = 4 and 1 + 1 equals 3.
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Just to bring this back to the original intention of the question.
Are all of the so designated top target cartridges now based on a short action receiver?
Is the basis for a center fire target round the sharp neck design like a 308,etc.?
And for the most part the more acute included angle of the 30-06 is the limiting factor?
If that is the case can a 260 Rem compete with a 6.5 Creed or 6.5 Lup?
Without going to a magnum bolt are there any long action cartridges that have that sharper neck design?
Are all of the so designated top target cartridges now based on a short action receiver?
Is the basis for a center fire target round the sharp neck design like a 308,etc.?
And for the most part the more acute included angle of the 30-06 is the limiting factor?
If that is the case can a 260 Rem compete with a 6.5 Creed or 6.5 Lup?
Without going to a magnum bolt are there any long action cartridges that have that sharper neck design?
precision_shooter
New member
No real difference in 260, 6.5 creed, and 6.5 lapua... Yes most of your highest scores and records nowadays were/are set with short action cartidges in the 6-7mm calibers. That's not to say the shooters are all using short actions though. Take a look at the 6.5-06 or 280ai...
Some are, some are not. But long actions are used for the most part; they provide a better bedding to the stock.Are all of the so designated top target cartridges now based on a short action receiver?
That's one requirement. Short, fat cases, too. And rimless ones are preferred over belted ones; they're easier to reload for best accuracy.Is the basis for a center fire target round the sharp neck design like a 308,etc.??
No, it's got too long of a powder charge space; it's not really a short, fat cartridge like the 6.5x.284 case is.And for the most part the more acute included angle of the 30-06 is the limiting factor?
Yes.If that is the case can a 260 Rem compete with a 6.5 Creed or 6.5 Lup??
Yes, all the Ackley variants, but most have way too short of a barrel life to be considered.Without going to a magnum bolt are there any long action cartridges that have that sharper neck design??
I suggest you pick the cartridge you want, then use a long action. The long ones have more surface area to the stock and that improves barrel vibrations and whipping to be more repeatable. If an internal box magazine is wanted, it can have a spacer in the back for shorter cartridges as well as an extended bolt stop so the bolt doesn't have to move more than 2/10ths inch before picking up a round as it starts forward from its rear most position. That's how Winchester made their .308 Win. cartridge (a short one, along with the .243 Win.) work well in their Model 70's long action. Some long action Model 70's were chambered and magazined for the .22 Hornet.
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Personally, I would stick with the 30-06, but with a caveate.
For shooting out to 1000 yards, and ringing steel targets, I would stick with the 30-06.
For match shooting I would probably go towards something else.
And as the screen name implies, I would probably go with a 284Win, or improve it to the 284 Shehane.
But that's just me...
For shooting out to 1000 yards, and ringing steel targets, I would stick with the 30-06.
For match shooting I would probably go towards something else.
And as the screen name implies, I would probably go with a 284Win, or improve it to the 284 Shehane.
But that's just me...
trg42wraglefragle
New member
Just because you have a long action, doesn't mean you need to get a long action cartridge.
If the cartridge you end up deciding on, meets all your specifications but would have fit in a short action, I wouldn't be worried at all.
As you said 600 yards, many rounds will do this distance comfortably, could probably even get a 223 to be competitive at that range.
I'd be inclined to go with a 6.5 of some sort, not a barrel burning one and one that doesn't need much or any prep to get brass.
260Rem, 6.5x47L or 6.5 Creedmore are all good on barrels and give great performance at 600 yards and more. Creedmore is the only one that doesn't have Lapua brass but the Hornady brass is meant to be pretty good.
6.5x55 will also run with any of these rounds, but doesn't seem to have to the same cool factor so is often over looked.
A long action round worth considering is 284 Win, this round has a lot going for it. Will have better ballistics than the other three mentioned, also doesn't burn out barrels, but will recoil more and needs a bit of prep if you want really good brass as need to neck up 6.5-284 brass.
Decide if you want;
Cheap ammo
Little brass prep
Long barrel life
Blistering fast, great ballistics
Factory ammo available
Then see which round fits the categories you want, and don't think twice if its a short or long action round.
P.S, 284 Win is sometimes called a long action round, but you need to seat the bullet extremely deep if you use the high BC ones, often sacrificing a lot of velocity and making if more or less a waste of time.
If the cartridge you end up deciding on, meets all your specifications but would have fit in a short action, I wouldn't be worried at all.
As you said 600 yards, many rounds will do this distance comfortably, could probably even get a 223 to be competitive at that range.
I'd be inclined to go with a 6.5 of some sort, not a barrel burning one and one that doesn't need much or any prep to get brass.
260Rem, 6.5x47L or 6.5 Creedmore are all good on barrels and give great performance at 600 yards and more. Creedmore is the only one that doesn't have Lapua brass but the Hornady brass is meant to be pretty good.
6.5x55 will also run with any of these rounds, but doesn't seem to have to the same cool factor so is often over looked.
A long action round worth considering is 284 Win, this round has a lot going for it. Will have better ballistics than the other three mentioned, also doesn't burn out barrels, but will recoil more and needs a bit of prep if you want really good brass as need to neck up 6.5-284 brass.
Decide if you want;
Cheap ammo
Little brass prep
Long barrel life
Blistering fast, great ballistics
Factory ammo available
Then see which round fits the categories you want, and don't think twice if its a short or long action round.
P.S, 284 Win is sometimes called a long action round, but you need to seat the bullet extremely deep if you use the high BC ones, often sacrificing a lot of velocity and making if more or less a waste of time.