Loading to different sized cannelures

S

Schnitzjr

New member
Hi all! First time reloading .223 and I have a question about some pulled M193 bullets I scored at a great price.

The bullets have cannelures set at two different heights. Using the same oal for both yields a load with the cannelure barely showing at the top of one cartridge while the other cartridge shows the cannelure 100 % ( the bullet is not even seated far enough to grab the cannelure).
Again, my oal is the same for both (2.24 and change).

Now, an obvious solution is to sort the 1500 bullets I have in two groups based on their cannelure position but then I end up with two different bullet lengths. Not the end of the world but this goes against consistency, that's for sure.

My other option is to ignore this and just have some bullets seated in the cannelure, others not. This makes me feel better because at least I can use the same powder charge throughout and logically, get consistent accuracy.
I'm just plinking here and want a simple, consistent round out to 100 yards.

What do you guys think?
 
I'd sort 'em by type then load 'email in two lots. If neck tension is enough, you won't need to crimp 'em.
 
If you are just plinking the easiest thing to do is ignore the cannelure and load em up, one right after the other to whatever OAL you desire.

If you want to crimp them sort em and load to the cannelure for each.


Schnitzjr said:
What is the advantage to sorting them?
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For plinkers none unless you want to crimp
 
Once you have reloaded some you will discover different bullet lots of the same bullet having a slightly different cannalure and ogive.

As other have stated if neck tension will hold em jusst get em loaded to the same OAL.
 
Actually Snyper no, I did not trim the brass. I did measure quite a few cases and found they were all very close in size, I assume because I shoot so much of the same brand (Wolf .223 Brass). When I say close I mean within a few thou of each other. Unfortunatley I would have to measure again when I get home because I do not remember the exact number.

Before you beat me up I understand the proper thing to do is trim the cases but when I saw the cases were so close in size to each other I deemed trimming an unnecessary step. As long as I made the oal the same for all I would have consistant sized rounds regardless of my starting length of the cases themselves.
So in a nutshell my cases are as close to identical as a caliper in my hands can measure but they are not trimmed.
 
Have you weighed a sample of the bullets, to make sure they're actually close to the advertised weight?
...Or that the two types are even the same weight?

Cannelures in different places is generally a pretty good hint that there are more differences inside the jacket. -And, as Bart B mentioned, that the shape of the bullet is likely different.
 
Schnitzjr, as long as your case length varies no more than about .006" or so and they're all within normal limits as well as having a good grip on the bullets, use them without crimping. They'll all function very well and shoot very accurate. Case length is way, way down the list of what's important for reliable functioning and best accuracy; probably 48th on a list of 50 things.
 
What is the advantage to sorting them?
Click to expand...
If the cannalures on two batches of bullets are located in different places along the bullet, for consistent OAL with a crimp, all the cannalures should be located in the same place. So sort by cannalure location...
 
I sincerely *HOPE* this doesn't start a crap fight...

Since you are reloading in bulk, and doing it with military overstock,
I have to ask the question,

Are you using a semi-auto like an AR-15 or variant?

-----

If it's a bolt rifle, don't worry about hard crimps,

--Unless your rifle likes to push the bullet back into the brass.
That has to do more with neck sizing and difficult ramps than your Cartridge Over All Length.

A bolt rifle with NO CRIMP will usually set the COAL (Cartridge Over All Lenght) for you.

The bullet hits the throat in the chamber, gets pushed back into the case if it's too long,
But it's still good to shoot.

-----

Semi autos are a different story entirely...
Semi-Auto bolts REALLY hammer the round into the chamber,
Instead of a nice, smooth even push from a manually operated bolt.

The AR-15 type feed ramps are PARTICULARLY hard on bullets with no crimp.
You will often find the bullet pushed back into the case, and the case mouth hung up some place in the action.
(FAILURE TO FEED/FEED JAM!)

Crimping helps to reduce the 'Lip' on the case so it doesn't hang up on sharp edges while chambering,
And it keeps the bullet SOLIDLY mounted in the case where it belongs during the brutal feed cycle.

I shoot a LOT of AR style rifles, and I use a Medium crimp.

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To keep from cutting cases to EXACTLY the same lenght every time you load...

When the cases have been fired twice, cut them to a MINIMUM lenght.
They won't grow/stretch back out to maximum before they get dinged up/split and get thrown out in bulk reloading like you are talking about.

That saves you cutting each case each and every time you reload them.
90% of the growth happens in the first two or three firing/resizing cycles,
So trim to minimum and forget about it for a while.

After the first trim to minimum, I don't even bother to track how many times they get fired anymore,
The growth is so insignificant after those first two firings it's not worth the effort.

I clean them, throw them through a 'Go/NoGo' case gauge and we are off to the races again without trimming.

--

The second part of NOT trimming the cases to EXACTLY the same lenght (Saving a buttload of time/aggrivation),
Is a Lee Factory Crimp die for your press.

Jack the bullet seater/crimp die up a little bit,
Screw in the seater to get the COAL you want,
Then run them through a factory crimp die that doesn't care what the case length is.

Compression (rolling) dies are VERY specific about case length,
Too short and they don't get crimped,
Too long and the shoulder buckles on the case.

Lee Facotry Crimp dies don't push DOWN on the case,
So no 'No Crimp' and no 'Shoulder Buckle' issues at all.

They crimp from the sides, using the shell plate to power the crimp.
The case can be 0.020" off and still get the same crimp each and every time with no buckled shoulders.

Good for a single press, no more scrubs...
GREAT for a progressive press and high volume loading!

This week I punched out 5,000 .223 rounds,
Didn't trim a single case,
Didn't have a single 'No Crimp' or Shoulder Buckle...

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The cannelure issue is simple on military bullets.

Military bullets are built to NATO specifications,
Not 'Sporting' firearms specifications. (SAAMI)

SAAMI is a Civilian Organization that sets 'Standards' down for arms & ammunition intended for civilian use.
The idea is, if every manufacturer complies with SAAMI specifications, the rifles/ammo will be 'Safe'...
That's their entire function.

NATO is North Atlantic Treaty Organization,
It's a MILITARY organization,

For our intended purposes, one part of NATO that we concern ourselves with,
An agreement between Allied Countries to build AMMUNITION that is compatible between countries.

SAAMI specifications are CARVED IN STONE.
No 'Updating' that might make current modern ammo UNSAFE in an older firearm.

NATO specifications change all the time.
If they want a longer, heavier, more dense bullet,
They simply change the specification to accommodate the round they want.

Weight Changes, Bullet Profile Changes, Jacket/Core Materials, Length Of Bullet, Cannelure Changes happen all the time.

You have bullets from two different specifications,
Even though they might be the same weight.
Core & Jacket materials changes require the cannelure movement to maintain freebore,
The distance between the bullet at rest, and where the bullet hits the 'Throat' or 'Forcing Cone' to enter the rifling.

The military can EASILY compensate for Cartridge Over All Length (COAL) by cutting the brass a little longer, or shorter on the neck,
Since they don't adhere to SAAMI specifications.

Since you are using CONSISTENT BRASS with both bullets and their respective cannelure positions,
The round will be longer or shorter if you crimp on the cannelure since you don't have the 'Correct' brass for that particular bullet and it's cannelure position.

----

Just a side note,
Since I don't have any idea how long you have been reloading or how much you know about the subject...

Unless you are DEAD SURE you have a 'NATO 5.56x45mm' specified barrel, (NOT JUST STAMPED 5.56!)

DO NOT LOAD TO NATO 5.56 POWDER CHARGE RATES!

To add to the confusion, CIVILIAN barrels are being marked '5.56 NATO' when they simply are not...

The NATO 5.56 chamber pressure is more than 10,000 CUP higher than the SAAMI civilian specification for 'Sporting' ammo.

Shooting military surplus NATO out of a civilian .223 SAAMI barrel is just plain taking a chance you are going to blow the rifle up...
It will chamber, it will fire, it will overpressure the chamber each and every time you fire...

So will loading to NATO 5.56 pressures when you hand load.

So unless you are working with a MILITARY TESTED BARREL, and you can VERIFY it's a military NATO 5.56 rated barrel,
Stick with SAAMI loads...

Most guys are reloading for 'Plinking' and varmint shooting/hunting, so the SAAMI specifications are just fine for what we do!
And they are DEAD SAFE in both rifles...
 
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Jeep, recheck your sources for pressure on those cartridges. .223 Rem proof loads are about 17,000 to 22,000 CUP (and PSI, too) higher than normal loads; SAAMI says. Barrels have to safely handle proof loads.

The NATO version isn't much different. Both rounds normal and proof load respective pressures are only a few thousand numbers apart. And there's different types of pressure systems that'll give different numbers for a given load in a given barrel.
 
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The NATO 5.56 chamber pressure is more than 10,000 CUP higher than the SAAMI civilian specification for 'Sporting' ammo.
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No, it's not.

SAAMI MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for .223 Remington is 55,000 psi. (CUP went away with the 2001 update. :rolleyes:)

ATK loads NATO 5.56x45mm loads to 60,000 psi MAP.

That's 5,000 psi. ...Not even close to the nearly-impossible-to-quantify "10,000 CUP."


And, JeepHammer, I know you're trying to help ...but your posts will be more helpful if they're shorter.
Try to keep it short, sweet, and to the point. Fewer people will skip over the wall of text. More people will read what you have to say. And, you won't waste as much time in front of the computer.
 
As long as I made the oal the same for all I would have consistant sized rounds regardless of my starting length of the cases themselves.
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That would be fine if you weren't concerned about the cannelure position

If you want the case mouth to fit the groove consistantly, you need to sort and trim
 
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