loading for 9MM carbine

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Bestknife

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OK,, I'm new here! Looks like some very knowledgeable friends!
I have an AR-15 in 9MM, I shoot 115 gr. RN-- RCBS sized to .357, White Label 2500, water dropped,, with 3.6-3.7 grs.:confused: of Titegroup. I have a large scope on the gun, and from sandbags I can't get it to shoot under 4" groups at 25 yards! I am using a Lee Auto disk measure. I have been reading about "Silhouette" powder, was wondering if this would help me out? Factory jacket loads shoot under 2 inches in this gun-- What the heck? Also, would Silhouette powder work in .45 ACP? This powder is new to me, never heard or used it before. Guess I've been out of the loop too long! Thanks for any/all help! I am not a speed freak, I like accuracy!!
 
Hi, and welcome to TFL. Relax. Stay awhile. :)

This powder (Ramshot Silhouette) is new to me, never heard or used it before.
Click to expand...

I've never used it either. But I do know that it's a flash-suppressed propellant in the burn rate range of AA#5 (I think it's AA#5 with an added flash-suppressant, but I'm not sure about that).

So yes, it would work well with 9mm/115/carbine. And it would also work well for 45 ACP; particularly with heavier bullets (230's).
 
Thanks Nick! I also saw some talk about "Power Pistol" and I'm not bothered by flash (if you see the flash, it's too late, Ha!) I used to reload everything with Unique,, and just dealt with all the un-burned powder every where!! Getting back to loading now,, and here are all these new powders!! I'm kinda lost! Thanks again! Jon
 
I have an AR 9mm carbine too. I use the same loads as in my pistol. I use a 124 gr RMR plated RN bullet at ~1.135 oal.
My loads are
w231/hp38--4.2 gr.
WSF--4.5 gr.
Those are my two favorites. Also used are,
AA5 --4.9gr
cfe pistol--5.0gr
be86--4.9gr
All shoot and group under 4" at 25 yds with iron sights. I think if I had a scope I could probably put them inside an inch.
 
Sorry,, but I'm not up on all the abbreviations of powder names--

W 231 -- Winchester 231-?

WSF-?

AA-5 --?

CFE, Copper fouling eraser.. I knew that one!

BE-86 --?
 
Ramshot Silhouette = Winchester's discontinued Winchester Action Pistol (aka WAP). Great powder for hotter 9mm and will work in 45 ACP.

WSF = Winchester Super Field... a Med / Slow Powder

AA#5 = Accurate Arms #5

BE86= Bullseye 86....Alliant BE86. See Alliant website.
 
OK, Where to start. Well, Nick compares Silhouette to AA#5. As near as I recall in my readings, I think most of those articles indicate that Winchester transferred their rights to WAP (Winchester Action Pistol) which has returned to production as Ramshot Silhouette. One indicator that makes me inclined to like those stories is that the old Win WAP load data and the early Ramshot Silhouette load data are not just similiar, they are identical.
The Win WAP seems to be credited as the powder used to develop the 40 S&W and the Win 9x23. One of the earlier articles I have seen indicates that the Win folk advised against using the powder for revolver cartridges since it was designed to burn hot and release large gas volumes, sorta like AutoComp, which I think Win has replaced WAP with. That translates to potential gas etching/cutting near the cylinder gap. But it should be appropriate for high pressure pistol cartridges.

The above reasoning was what lead me to start experimenting with Silhouette. One candidate goal was close to Bestknife's opening post above. I wanted to obtain a generic load for carbine types in 9mm. Accuracy was not the goal, reliable cycling was. I will leave out the chapter on what I go through to determining the safe load test ranges, but I will say that once I believe I have a safe (non-plus P) test range, the added factor of test guns that are +P capable gives me an extra safety margin, since I try to avoid +P loading for any caliber. I was also curious about the use of hollow base bullets by some manufacturers and why that might be useful. In that respect, I ended up with two primary bullets for test. Montana Gold 124 gr. FMJ flat base and Winchester 115 gr. hollow base. Laid side by side, they have matching profiles.

Test carbines were Uzi, M-11 carbine, and yes folks, a High Point 9mm carbine. Long story short, my generic carbine loads are 5.5 gr silhouette under a 115 gr. Win hollow base, and 5.5 gr silhouette under a 124 gr. Montana Gold FMJ. Also since Power pistol has been mentioned, that is also a generic carbine load as 6.3 gr. Power Pistol under the 115 gr. Win Hollow Base FMJ and 6.3 gr. Power Pistol under the Montana Gold 124 gr. FMJ.
You read that right, same powder charges used for different weight bullets, and ALL have the same OAL of 1.145 .
As a side note, these loads are what I would call about mid range for most loading charts, function very well in the carbines I tested (which are basically blow-back types), and have also functioned well in a Rock Island 1911 style 9mm, A glock 19, and a few I do not recall the types. I have not yet tested these for velocity.

Here is one I have tested recently in 45 ACP.

185 gr. MGJHP with 8.3 gr. Silhouette avg vel = 1043, extreme spread (10 rounds) 71, Std Dev. 25.

Same bullet, 8.3 gr. True Blue, avg vel 988, ex spread 65, std dev. 20.

Same bullet, 8.3 gr. Power Pistol, avg vel 1070, ex spread 64, std dev. 21.

Test gun was Colt Combat Elite 45 acp and all test loads were OAL of 1.190.

I am currently testing Silhouette in 380 auto but initial chrony trials with it are giving disappointing std dev. numbers and I have no operating theory as to why that is. Function is great though.
 
Did anyone mention trying to match bullet to barrel twist rate?
While that doesn't seem to matter much for pistols, it just might for a rifle of the same caliber.
Just a thought as I have noticed very different results when using the same pistol caliber ammo in pistols and rifles.
 
"...3.6-3.7 grs. of Titegroup..." That's below minimum for a 115 cast or jacketed bullet. Don't think you really need a different powder, just more. Hodgdon shows 4.5 to 4.8 of Titegroup for a jacketed bullet. 3.9 to 4.3 for a cast bullet. And 9mm uses a .355" bullet, not .357".
Only one I've ever fired was an M-16K(9mm SMG version) using IVI ball. IVI made ammo for the Canadian Forces. Shot the thing, up hill, at 100 yards and had no trouble hitting a man sized target with iron sights. Good enough. Isn't a target rifle.
 
As I said, I am trying for best accuracy, when I upped the charge my group went wild! Yes I realize that 9MM in a jacketed bullet is .355, however when using cast lead bullets, you want a larger bullet, usually .2000 over jacketed size for proper gas seal as the lead is softer than the copper and will fill the groves more tightly. Also, the lead will slide down the barrel easier than the copper, upping velocity using the same powder charges. Something that is not talked about much.
 
Titegroup is a VERY fast powder. I wonder if a slower powder in the longer barrel would net better accuracy. I think of titegeoup as a kick out of the barrel but a slower powder more of a bob sled shove. Maybe I crazy too.

What charge were you up to that it wemt bananas?

I also know that 9mm can be cantankerous with cast bullets too. YMMV.
 
Chainsaw: my banana load was 4.2-4.3 grains.. ASAP I will make a dummy load, then pull the bullet and check base size.... I was just told my 9mm expander may be too small- made for .355 jacket.. then when loading my larger .357 sized bullets, the may be being squeezed down when loaded into the case, making them very undersize for a lead bullet. I want my bullet sized .357 for a snug fit in the barrel..... make since? Worth a try anyway!
 
Hmm. You do bring up an interesting point. Even in my glock (which have loose chambers) i had to go down to a 356 to get them to run right. Do you have a smaller sizer?


My competition ammo is 4.6ish grain of titegroup but Im making sure I am making power factor.

Tried fooling with the OA.L.?
 
smaller sizer

Yes chainsaw I have smaller,, .355-.356-.357- .358 I can do about any size.. I also have my first set of non carbide .38/.357 dies,, I plan to pull the expander out and put into the 9mm. I have talked to another rifle castor and he said the same thing.. The cases need to be enlarger more in the neck to accept the larger bullet, so in bullet seating the bullet is not squished down.

Before everyone starts freaking out, I am not speaking about handgun ammo, but 9MM in my carbine. Since you asked, my OAL is 1.100
 
As I said, I am trying for best accuracy, when I upped the charge my group went wild! Yes I realize that 9MM in a jacketed bullet is .355, however when using cast lead bullets, you want a larger bullet, usually .2000 over jacketed size for proper gas seal as the lead is softer than the copper and will fill the groves more tightly.
Click to expand...

You need to seriously check your decimal places. It should read .001 to .002.
And you need to slug your bore to be sure about the number in the first place. Then there is the matter of what alloy or BHN you are running.

As far as upping the charge and getting wider groups.....your brass, primer, powder, bullet combo just told you something. Could be the powder.. could be the bullet, could be the sizing. Could be the OAL too. Are you over crimping? Lots of variables are involved here.
 
I've used both Titegroup and Silhouette with a 9mm carbine. My preference... Longshot. It's the only powder I use for 9mm, both lead cast for range practice and for my carry, XTP rounds. You might want to inquire of Machinegun Tony who runs class III. He suggested the powder to me a few years ago.

Good luck, be safe.
 
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